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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#201

Post by amelius »

constantcrying wrote: post #86
amelius wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are saying that in a case like Boeing's the CEO was completely unaware of the shitshow at their company and couldn't have taken appropriate actions?

A dysfunctional company with bad management is not a crime. Putting a CEO in jail because he is bad, not because any crime had been committed, is an even worse idea. The specific case here about criminally negligent software design errors almost certainly never came up to the CEO. If there is evidence otherwise and the CEO was aware of the problem and decided that the risks were acceptable then he obviously should go…

What is the problem with CEOs starting internal investigations to see if there are any (safety/criminal) issues?

Why does the cost of investigation have to be paid by society?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#202

Post by black_13 »

supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

[dead]

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#203

Post by grecy »

iSnow wrote: post #37
supernova87a wrote: post #25

Our governmental methods of punishment for corporations strike me as lacking. This seems similar to Wells Fargo, where ok, the company was fined, sued, made to pay restitution (somewhat) to victims. But underlying it all, the culture and incentives at the company that produced the situation didn't get fundamentally changed. Which often perpetuates across specific leaders, boards, and is a part of what a company is --…

You have to get the leadership by the balls. The CEO isn't going to change a company's culture alone, but she has leverage and connections. If they know they face prison if the company plays foul in a major way, they will put pressure on their deputies to change culture. Also, fines that go up to say 10% of global revenue. That ensures that even activist shareholders take note and do not pressure the CEO to cut corne…

> Also, fines that go up to say 10% of global revenue.

10% ?

What? if you or I were found negligent that resulted in hundreds of deaths we would be in jail for the rest of our lives, effectively fining us 100% of ALL revenue FOREVER.

At a minimum they should have a massive fine (like 100% of revenue for a year) and do whatever it takes to halve the stock price, thus punishing the stockholders too - after all, they invested in a business that killed people, they should be punished too.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#204

Post by jajko »

monero-xmr wrote: post #26
buildbot wrote: post #2

"The guilty plea would brand the planemaker a felon and could complicate its ability to sell products to the U.S. government. About 32% of Boeing’s nearly $78 billion in revenue last year came from its defense, space and security unit." Well that's a fun little fact

Banks are declared “too big to fail”. Banks! How can a bank be so important, and ostensibly private, that it can’t fail and let its shareholders take their licks? There is no world - none - literally no possible universe - that Boeing cannot sell to the government, or that it fails, or that its planes get grounded indefinitely, or anything even remotely close to this outcome. There are 2 plane makers of appreciable s…

You know whose money those failing banks have/had? Its hardly its own, nor investor's as much as you would like, its mostly regular joes. The same regular joes that screams 'eat the rich' and 'let them fail'. I wonder what would the same joe say if government listened and next day same joe would be without his pension or savings.

And as written by others banks do fail, and literally end their existence or are sold for peanuts to competition (Credit Suisse just recently). Using few cases from 2008 and making claims like whole universe always runs like that ain't very close to reality and doesn't help the discussion.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#205

Post by justinclift »

BartjeD wrote: post #124
justinclift wrote: post #31

Seems an extremely soft ball approach: • Under the deal, Boeing agreed to pay a $243.6 million fine and for an third-party monitor to be installed to monitor the company’s compliance. ~$240M seems pretty low for an industry where billions are commonly thrown about. • The deal spares Boeing from a trial just as the planemaker is trying to turn a corner in its safety and manufacturing crises. Sparing them from a trial…

For spilling a hot coffee cup you get $ 2.7 million worth of punitive damages. But for killing more than 200 people and trying to hide the evidence, we'll charge you 200 million and call it a day. That's less per person than the price of a hot-coffee spill.

Bulk discount. :(

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#206

Post by grecy »

robertlagrant wrote: post #132
akira2501 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The U.S. is not going to shut down Boeing. It's a monopoly. Just break it up. > How many jobs would be lost if that happened "We don't negotiate with [economic] terrorists." > especially in this economy? $77b annual revenue. Positive quarterly growth rate the last 8 out of 12 quarters. Two global wars we refuse to negotiate peace in and Boeing is a major weapons supplier. Then again, if you kill and scare enough pe…

> "We don't negotiate with [economic] terrorists." This is just so silly. Shutting down a company results in people losing their jobs. No terrorists involved.

> Shutting down a company results in people losing their jobs. No terrorists involved.

I'm always baffled by this unholy protection of "jobs".

Making asbestos essentially illegal resulted in tens of thousands of people losing their jobs and shutting down coal plants will do the same.

It makes no sense to protect jobs at all costs, and doing so can have very bad outcomes.

If a company is doing something illegal or dangerous or that does not serve society anymore, we shouldn't bend over backwards just because people will lose their jobs.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#207

Post by heymijo »

Regarding the "Can/should a CEO or officer be held liable?" dialogue, there is already at least one precedent.

The 2002 Sarbanes-Oxley (SOX) Act:

> The law states that if top corporate executives knowingly sign off on a false financial report, they’re subject to a prison term of up to 10 years and a fine of up to $1 million, with penalties escalating to 20 years and $5 million if their misconduct is willful. [0]

Now, would it work? The linked article details reasons that make it challenging in the SOX context.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/idUS3512973425/

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#208

Post by gruez »

zarzavat wrote: post #181
swarnie wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The second crash was murder. No civilised justice system in the world is getting to murder from these facts. Manslaughter via negligence if you're feeling really lucky

Depends on if it could be shown that the decision to not ground was motivated by a desire for profit or not.

Still not murder unless they intended for the deaths to occur.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#209

Post by grecy »

manquer wrote: post #48
iSnow wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism. If the first fatal flight had happened to an US or European airline somewhere over US or European territory, the fleet would have been grounded for an investigation.

They even blamed the pilots badly for the accident .

I think it's time we stopped calling it an accident.
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