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Scandal at America's top science fair

karlstack.com

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Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#201

Post by EvgeniyZh »

UncleMeat wrote: post #164
EvgeniyZh wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just make tests hard enough so that you wouldn't need lottery

At some point a test stops becoming a general aptitude test and starts becoming a "how good are you at taking this test" situation. You get specific prep courses designed just around that one specific test and strategies optimized for that specific test. You start selecting for "elite" rather than "smart." A merit lottery also keeps everybody from having to waste shitloads of time studying for this one test.

Any test checks how good are you at taking this test. I've not seen evidence that at some complexity level it stops correlating with success in university, have you?

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#202

Post by HelloMyNeighbor »

isef_researcher wrote: post #196
notjoemama wrote: post #33

In reading this, I am reminded of a YouTube video by CGP Grey about how anger is more viral than any other emotional reaction online, including love. But then I think, isn't this one of those times where at least some level of annoyance is justified? Except, there's nothing I can do about it. Does making more people aware, that can't do anything about it, improve the situation? Or is awareness pointless because of ho…

There is a reason to increase awareness - to put pressure on Society for Science to take action. So far they still have not made a public statement, have disabled their YouTube comments etc, and seem to just be waiting for this all to blow over.

They are taking action - the google doc has been updated to show this. They aren't taking PUBLIC action and I suspect won't make a PUBLIC statement until the investigation is over.

How about you give them some time to go through the process?

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#203

Post by [deleted] »

HelloMyNeighbor wrote: post #202
isef_researcher wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reason to increase awareness - to put pressure on Society for Science to take action. So far they still have not made a public statement, have disabled their YouTube comments etc, and seem to just be waiting for this all to blow over.

They are taking action - the google doc has been updated to show this. They aren't taking PUBLIC action and I suspect won't make a PUBLIC statement until the investigation is over. How about you give them some time to go through the process?

[deleted]

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#204

Post by isef_researcher »

HelloMyNeighbor wrote: post #202
isef_researcher wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reason to increase awareness - to put pressure on Society for Science to take action. So far they still have not made a public statement, have disabled their YouTube comments etc, and seem to just be waiting for this all to blow over.

They are taking action - the google doc has been updated to show this. They aren't taking PUBLIC action and I suspect won't make a PUBLIC statement until the investigation is over. How about you give them some time to go through the process?

Very naive take. They have only responded to some journalist who pressured them so that it wouldn't become a news story and are claiming they're investigating. But then go on to post on Youtube, share the press release with media outlets, etc. They're clearly waiting for attention to die down without having to get any public scrutiny for this big fuck up, b/c useful idiots like you will say "they're doing something!!"

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#205

Post by adr1an »

I will take the liberty to expreas my most profound cynicism. Didn't Google fake some of its AI showcases recently? Didn't Apple fake stuff about their iPhone on some presentation? I believe this goes beyond a young person "mistake". And no. It's not just to the universities. There are plenty of institutions involved. There are commercial successes from technology corporations to take inspiration from. The lack of consequences stems from a judicial power that's made in an extreme conservative set of rules. So, everything is on fire. Or should be. And don't get me started on research journals and editorials...

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#206

Post by jimmydddd »

throwawaysleep wrote: post #14
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #9

Science fairs always have hints of fraud around them. Many of the children putting out incredibly advanced research, beyond their capacity, are benefiting from their parents’ expertise, or friends of family, or access to labs, and such. It’s not talked about much but has been an issue for decades. As a side note, the criticism around this incident seems to have some racial tones. It’s weird to see tweets referring to…

Definitely racial tones. Asian countries are frequently accused of copying, cheating, and stealing intellectual property from others, so it matches what people assume about members of those races.

I know these guys were US kids, but when I was at university, it did seem that foreign students from large population and highly competitive countries seemed to not have the same focus on honesty. I mean, I saw US kids cheating, but some of the foreign students would actually laugh at you for not cheating. I just took it as a difference in culture. The same way what would be considered a "bribe" in the US would just be "doing business" in some other cultures.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#207

Post by watwut »

saberience wrote: post #120
watwut wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying tutors is not gaming the system. It is trying to learn effectively. I get that one wants to avoid creating a system where students are forced to spend too much time to learn purely for competition sake with no real practical need, but still. The core issue is the pyramid shaped system where not being at one of these super places means that you are out of the competition for best work in general.

Having to pay for tutors to have a chance of getting into the best colleges biases the whole system in favour of the wealthy. Do you want only rich kids going to college?

That argument has nothing to do with whether it is gaming the system. Just like intentionally buying a house on a good school district is not gaming the system.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#208

Post by watwut »

dagw wrote: post #140
saberience wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to pay for tutors to have a chance of getting into the best colleges biases the whole system in favour of the wealthy. Do you want only rich kids going to college?

If you are genuinely smart you will do well enough on qualify for top schools just by studying at school and on your own and relying on your own ability. And even the best and most expensive tutors cannot do that much to improve your scores if you just don't have the aptitude and discipline. The system now is far more geared towards sending only rich kids to college than any national testing and admissions system wou…

That is not how it works. People having tutors are genuinely smart, have discipline, do well and then get tutor to do even better.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#209

Post by uneekname »

isef_researcher wrote: post #193
uneekname wrote: post #10

I was a finalist at the 2017 ISEF and it was quite an experience. A lot of super smart kids there and we all had fun living it up in Los Angeles. There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. No hate to high schoolers getting valuable STEM experience at local universities, but Regeneron should do more to diffe…

Not saying this phenomenon of having connections isn't true, but also, kinda unrelated to the issue here, no? This kid plagiarized & had serious research misconduct. The fact that he has connections via his sister & dad is not the problem imo.

I agree that research misconduct is different than what I'm describing. I think that students who conduct serious research with local universities (for example) should be celebrated. But I do think the issues are related in that Regeneron needs to think about the (lack of) systems in place for vetting and supporting projects of all types.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#210

Post by riku_iki »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #174
relwin wrote: post #47

My kids attended the same high school district that this student's school, Canyon Crest Academy (CCA), is part of. My youngest has friends that attended CCA and I asked him once why he didn't want to attend (it's an open school district) -- his reply is "all they do is study for AP tests." So I'm thinking there might be other pressures (i.e. parental) to perform, and this student may have responded in a desperate fas…

Raising my kids in the Bay Area, I certainly am aware of what I call unhealthy competitiveness in even the public schools. If you think this is an unfortunate way to raise a child — in that kind of overly competitive environment – then there is a lot of blame to go around. The difficulty of getting into a UC school being an obvious place to start.

> The difficulty of getting into a UC school being an obvious place to start.

its obvious that there is competition to get to top school. So, it is question of setting expectation to get there and not necessary difficulty (which is natural and given)

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