Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 397 posts

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#201

Post by philistine »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138
voidwtf wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand correctly Ticketmaster is still the one creating this problem, they demand exclusivity in their contracts which often means the venue has no choice if they want to participate in a large enough market to continue operating. Similarly artists have trouble securing large venues if not participating in their scheme. This is the problem with most 'monopolies', they reach a certain critical mass where they…

> artists have trouble securing large venues Then perform smaller venues and ration tickets to your most-devoted fans. Unfortunately, if you do that, it's tough to become a billionaire. (Analogy: wineries. On the 4 x 4 of size and price point, you have wines positioned in each quadrant.) TicketMaster is, or more accurately its exclusivity requirements are, the root of the problem. But everyone around them--from the m…

> Then perform smaller venues and ration tickets to your most-devoted fans.

Companies end up bankrupt with your line of thinking. Assuming infrastructure is sufficient for each situation to be profitable is magical thinking.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#202

Post by JumpCrisscross »

oldandboring wrote: post #154
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> artists have trouble securing large venues Then perform smaller venues and ration tickets to your most-devoted fans. Unfortunately, if you do that, it's tough to become a billionaire. (Analogy: wineries. On the 4 x 4 of size and price point, you have wines positioned in each quadrant.) TicketMaster is, or more accurately its exclusivity requirements are, the root of the problem. But everyone around them--from the m…

> Then perform smaller venues and ration tickets to your most-devoted fans. Unfortunately, if you do that, it's tough to become a billionaire. If you do that, it's tough to make any money at all. If you're, say, Dave Matthews Band and you have 50,000 people who want to come to each show, and you start saying you'll only play to 1,000 people at a time, the economics start going sideways. The size of the band has to sh…

> If you're, say, Dave Matthews Band and you have 50,000 people who want to come to each show, and you start saying you'll only play to 1,000 people at a time, the economics start going sideways

There are plenty of 5 to 20k-seat venues that would be fine.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#203

Post by failuser »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #128
ryandrake wrote: post #124

I'm as glad as anyone else to see an abusive company get some scrutiny, B U T . . . Everyone is complaining about Ticketmaster but they're still giving them their money, so how are they supposed to respond? They are not being financially incentivized to change their ways. This feels a lot like the video gamer who hates Video Game Company XYZ with the passion of a thousand suns, yet like clockwork buys their video gam…

> Everyone is complaining about Ticketmaster but they're still giving them their money, so how are they supposed to respond? This is why monopoly is a market failure. There isn't a market mechanism that can correct this.

Potentially, a big player with money to burn can undercut them, but it does not look like that’s going to happen.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#204

Post by lotsofpulp »

selectodude wrote: post #188
anthonypasq wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people somehow feel like the they have right to see a Taylor Swift concert for $40 but if you suggested that SuperBowl tickets should be $40 everyone would look at you like youre crazy. Seeing a live event is not a luxury. Seeing the most popular entertainer in the world in a giant stadium is a luxury.

Sure, but the economist would say that Taylor Swift should have made every penny of the $300 ticket cost. Live Nation getting even a penny is the market failure, not the cost of the ticket itself.

Why would the economist say that? If Taylor swift made every penny, then what reason would the business that operates the venue have to operate?

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#205

Post by JumpCrisscross »

philistine wrote: post #201
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> artists have trouble securing large venues Then perform smaller venues and ration tickets to your most-devoted fans. Unfortunately, if you do that, it's tough to become a billionaire. (Analogy: wineries. On the 4 x 4 of size and price point, you have wines positioned in each quadrant.) TicketMaster is, or more accurately its exclusivity requirements are, the root of the problem. But everyone around them--from the m…

> Then perform smaller venues and ration tickets to your most-devoted fans. Companies end up bankrupt with your line of thinking. Assuming infrastructure is sufficient for each situation to be profitable is magical thinking.

> Companies end up bankrupt with your line of thinking

The point is artists want to have their cake and eat it too. Any artist performing at a stadium could make a solid profit performing at non-TM 5 to 20k-seat arena while charging a similar (or lower) price. They don't because it's more lucrative to perform at a 70,000-seat stadium.

LiveNation is a monopolist. But they also give many market participants cover to charge more without offending their fans.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#206

Post by crabmusket »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #189
azinman2 wrote: post #166

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: kill the secondary market. Live nation should be broken up but a big driver of cost is the scalpers/hedgers who buy out everything and put it on StubHub. Just make all sales final. Check IDs at the door, or use technology to speed up identity verification (mail out rfids, etc). Sucks if you get sick or whatever, just like many things in life where you cancel last minute. It’…

> a big driver of cost is the scalpers/hedgers who buy out everything and put it on StubHub Not true. About "10% of [performing arts] tickets sold in the primary market are later re-sold by ticket scalpers," increasing to "20-30% of top-tiered seats" [1]. Banning scalping increases attendance but results in "fewer distinct productions...shown in metropolitan areas or states that require ticket resellers to be license…

> Empirically, markets with scalpers have lower ticket prices [2]

I haven't read the full paper yet, just the abstract, but the abstract talks about ticket window prices. Do they analyse the prices actually paid by the average attendee, which includes prices paid to scalpers? Or am I misunderstanding the term "ticket window"?

As a lay person, my gut asks: if scalpers don't cause attenders to pay more overall, then why do they exist?

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#207

Post by crabmusket »

azinman2 wrote: post #166

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: kill the secondary market. Live nation should be broken up but a big driver of cost is the scalpers/hedgers who buy out everything and put it on StubHub. Just make all sales final. Check IDs at the door, or use technology to speed up identity verification (mail out rfids, etc). Sucks if you get sick or whatever, just like many things in life where you cancel last minute. It’…

> Just make all sales final.

Couldn't you mandate tickets must be sold back to the original seller if you e.g. can't make it to the event? Rather than to a third party?

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#208

Post by giobox »

When this merger was first announced over a decade ago, it became like mandatory teaching in Competition Law classes for Law students in the UK.

Much of the legal community at the time was convinced there was no way in hell the original merger would be approved. Even at that time LiveNation controlled an astonishing percentage of the live music venue market - which when paired with ticket master's near total dominance of live music ticket sales... this was one of the seemingly simplest competition law cases in years. Then the deal was approved, of course.

I am not surprised in the least it's finally getting anti-trust attention.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#209

Post by JumpCrisscross »

failuser wrote: post #203
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone is complaining about Ticketmaster but they're still giving them their money, so how are they supposed to respond? This is why monopoly is a market failure. There isn't a market mechanism that can correct this.

Potentially, a big player with money to burn can undercut them, but it does not look like that’s going to happen.

> a big player with money to burn can undercut them

Unclear. There are limited cities that can support a 30,000+-seat stadium. Most of them have some already. Unless there is way more demand for these venues than I realise, I'd also guess they're close to saturation, i.e. adding another venue would result in lower utilisation.

This natural monopoly in large concert venues creates a condition where winning is Pyrrhic, since it results in no profits for everyone playing.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#210

Post by bombcar »

zer00eyz wrote: post #192

I used to work in this space. If the DOJ breaks up live nation the only group who gets screwed is the consumer. The sort of artist who is big enough to use live nation also wants a pay day for going on tour. They want the door, they want to sell their merch, they want a cut of the 20$ beer you buy. There might be 1 or 2 artist left who dont want to see you gouged on the ticket but that might not even be true any more…

As long as shows are sold out, the fan is getting screwed. Where else is money coming from?

Actually allowing auctions for tickets might make it so they can make money directly and not bother ... .ahahaha I can't even write it.

Post reply on HN