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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#201

Post by rsanchez1 »

efuquen wrote: post #144
zedshaw wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did read it, and he's wrong. That's why I wrote mine.

"Never listen to people who try to make beginners feel like losers." I didn't see anywhere in Jeff's post where he was saying he wanted to make beginners look like losers. What he is saying is that it isn't necessary for everyone to learn how to code, that a lot of people seem to have a passing interest in it but aren't really serious about it. His example is the fact that Mike Bloomberg is using it as a cheap politi…

Well what's wrong with people having a passing interest in it learning it?

His example seems to be more him having a bone to pick with Mayor Bloomberg. Maybe, having a mayor that extols the virtue of learning something will help improve student absenteeism. Who knows?

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#202

Post by rsanchez1 »

dbecker wrote: post #183
gregors wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

back up 200 years and replace coding with reading...

Life was hard 200 years ago. Taking the time to learn to read would have been a major hardship for some people, and many (most of whom could not afford books) may not have used the skill much. I think it was reasonable for some people not to learn to read 200 years ago.

England had a literacy rate of 62% around 1800, so no, it was not reasonable for some people not to learn to read 200 years ago.

The American Revolution was spread through pamphlets passed out at the local tavern. Newspapers played a major role in educating the people about the Revolution and passing around the text of the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, and Constitution, so no, it was not reasonable for some people not to learn to read 200 years ago.

By the way, if Gutenberg's Printing Revolution made the written word so cheap that pamphlets could be handed out to as many people as possible, I don't think there would have been many who could not afford books 200 years ago. If there were many who didn't use the reading skill much, then there wouldn't have been all the hoopla over the Stamp Act the British imposed on the American colonies. You sorta need to know how to read to make any use of stamps 200 years ago.

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/literacy-rates

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#203

Post by lollancf37 »

slurgfest wrote: post #176
B-Con wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…

"Please don't learn to code" is not a useful or kind thing to say. If he did not mean to say that, then he shouldn't have said it. Technically most people can get by without literacy, general education, birth control or hand washing. But it's just offensively elitist to say that "most people" don't need things which enrich life and improve opportunities significantly, in aggregate. How do you know who should be permi…

What do you mean by useful ? Seriously what is really useful in all that "Please code / Please don't code" story ? In itself nothing, it's all a matter of opinion. That doesn't make it less interesting.

So putting the sentence "Please don't learn to code" out of context is just not fair and misleading. He wrote this post like he wrote everything else he does, with his style. You have the right not to like it but please do not state your opinion as fact. How does the post is more useful ?

The idea that everyone should learn to program doesn't disturb me at the least but it's just a waste of time. Comparing programing langage with english, french, russian or whatever is just a joke. The day the first words of a baby will be the binary representation of "Mommy" I'll rethink about it.

In truth those who want to get involved in programming for whatever reason (as a hobby, professionally, by curiousity ...) are those who should learn to program. So let's drop the hype, pleadge and let's keep those good websites which help to get started. I find knowing how to program really useful, empowering, fun and challenging but not everyone has to feel the same way and not every programmer feels like I do. That is what Jeff Attwood tells in this post, while humouring himself with the movement. So please learn to code, if you want to but you'll still be cool if you don't.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#204

Post by sklipo »

gaelian wrote: post #186
sklipo wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

back up 200 years and replace plumbing with reading... Your argument isn't evidence for anything at all. There's a big difference between reading and coding: reading is a very useful method of communication. Everyone should be literate just like everyone should be able to speak. Coding, on the other hand, is much more along the lines of plumbing than language.

There was a book written by Douglas Rushkoff called Program or be programmed[1] wherein he asserts quite a compelling argument for why learning at least a basic understanding of programming and how a computer works actually is (or very soon will be) just as important as being able to read. The basic crux of the issue for me is this: you can control a society via the flow of information through that society. Both read…

Of course people will need to be informed on security and privacy on computers, but that doesn't require an understanding of coding. I know how to safely drive a car, for example, but I have no idea how it works under the hood (and frankly, I don't have the time or energy to learn this).

Coding really is a specialized job. For sure, some people would be better off learning it because it can be useful, but everyday people don't need to know how to code just like they don't need to know how a car works. All they need to know is how to drive safely, or use the computer securely.

And really, I don't get this whole "learn to code, learn how your computer works" idea. When I first learned ruby, I didn't magically gain an understanding of filesystems and networks and all those other things. My dad, on the other hand, who doesn't know how to code, in fact he didn't even know what a kernel was, can fix your computer up in a jiffy (hardware and software both, particularly windows). He's in fact still better than me at this, because he knows all the intimate little details of the windows UI and what each thing does, what each error probably means.

So the point is, you don't need to learn how to code to know how to use a computer well, and learning javascript won't really help you with that either. If all you want is to know how to protect your computer from the powers that be, don't learn to code; just listen to what the experts have to say on the subject.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#207

Post by chris_wot »

roguecoder wrote: post #137
chris_wot wrote: post #34

I agree with him largely. Then he goes and wrecks his argument by stating that the "Gang of Four" is an "antiquated tome". I can't work out where this resentment business is coming from here.

It's 17 years old, dry and contextless. It can be useful, but it'd be way down on the list of books I'd hand to someone and not only because I'm assuming anyone starting out today is programming in Python, Ruby or JavaScript. It certainly isn't necessary reading to be a good programmer, by any means.

So what it it's 17 years old? I read it, but it's not contextless, nor is it dry. It has plenty of context - albieit in an older form - the creating of a word processor. You can still grasp this today! In fact, the information on Factory patterns is still used today, same with Singletons and a raft of other items - including Prototypes, which is what Javascript uses.

Please note that I didn't say that I'd provide it to a newbie coder. I merely pointed out that it's not an "antiquated tome". It's very definitely useful, and has been so for some time and remains that way. In fact, I actually think that Zed nailed it on many points in that article.

I find it very interesting that my comment was downvoted merely because someone disagreed. There was nothing inflammatory about my response, nor was there anything factually incorrect. I offered a differing opinion, of which someone decided they would hit the downvote button, instead of doing what they should do - post a response.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#208

Post by chris_wot »

readme wrote: post #152

Most of the things zed said here I agree with. What I don't agree with is his attitude toward classic programming books like k&r and GoF. Those books are gold, and I'm sorry, but if you want to master something you need to study the classics. Ask any academic. Lcthw is great for beginners but once you've read those you need to move on to the more serious stuff.

Someone, I suspect the same person, has been downvoting all the folks who don't find GoF and k&r and who are willing to say it.

I think this is wrong. If you don't agree, please post a response. Don't hit the downvote button. These are valid comments, and while you might not agree they certainly add to the discussion.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#209

Post by chris_wot »

bryze wrote: post #4

I really don't know why people worry so much about this. I don't think dissuading people from entering any field is surprising. Generally, experts in a field want passionate, talented people, because that's how the field will likely advance, which is what any good expert hopes for. If we scare off the dispassionate before they have a chance to burden the field, great. This is exactly the purpose of "weeder" courses i…

I disagree with your opinion on why folks are worried about this. There are many folks who are scared off unnecessarily by the sheer arrogance of those who say that they shouldn't code.

However, whoever is downvoting opinions that they don't like - will they cut it out? Seriously, I'd love to know who downvotes because I've noticed a lot of it is unjust. If you notice, there are a lot of considered responses to this considered reply. The debate has continued - trying to censor the opinion of others is pretty horrendous IMO.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#210

Post by neokya »

zedshaw wrote: post #62
j45 wrote: post #53

"Never listen to people who try to make beginners feel like losers" Zing. A great litmus test that's simple and has results too. Too many programming communities, including the most popular web frameworks that are the be all and end all to everything have elements of this. It's not something to be proud of to feel better about yourself by putting others down, telling others what they do, or how they do it, or who the…

It's not just programming. I run into this with guitarists too. I mostly play for my own enjoyment, but I constantly run into guitarists who get off on treating beginners like crap. Even in music schools they do this, and for some weird reason they think that this is how you make students awesome. Ultimately, these kinds of behaviors in teachers don't make better students, they just kill off the more fragile ones who…

Exactly. I know some programming by now. I am planning to buy a guitar to play with 'Hotel California'
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