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macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

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Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#201

Post by culopatin »

askonomm wrote: post #117
baq wrote: post #28

Been saying this for as long as I’ve been using macOS: it is not a developer friendly OS and am close to the conclusion that this reputation is a psy-op. Yeah it’s pretty, it mostly works when the box is first turned on and the hardware is unmatched but macOS itself is actually subpar. QA seems second tier, things you’d except from other OSes like, I don’t know, using a third party second display are just bad experie…

Funny, I have the same feelings about Linux. So many bugs and glitches that it really feels like nobody actually tests anything. And Windows, while I don't remember any weird glitches, just has so many ads that it makes me feel like I'm browsing some sort of yellow newspaper. Almost every update of Windows brings with it new installed apps like Candy Crush or Amazon Prime Video that I never opted into.

Linux is that home made thing that is all function over form, you’re proud of but any time a guest wants to use it you have to be there to make it work, and it’s pretty ugly. Windows is the tacky plasticky thing you bought at Walmart/Amazon. It works, but you’re not putting it out to show anyone. It’s a cheap TV. Apple is the nice expensive thing you got from a design magazine but sometimes you wish they had thought of function over design.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#202

Post by surgical_fire »

culopatin wrote: post #200
surgical_fire wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using MacOS for about 5 years, as it is the machine issued by my workplace. And I hate it. It's so much worse than Linux that it's not even a joke. Hell, I think I would have preferred to work on Windows with WSL than this crap. The hardware is not even that good. I presume people like it because it looks slick and serves as a status symbol.

Please name a competitor with better laptop hardware (I assume your workplace provided you with a laptop). Things such as better screen, lower fan noise/computing power ratio, speaker quality, touchpad and battery life.

> Please name a competitor with better laptop hardware (I assume your workplace provided you with a laptop).

My workplace provides me with a MacBook yes.

I honestly prefer using my 5 year old Dell G5.

I absolutely hate MacBook screen. It's reflexive, whereas I very much favor the matte finish of basically every other manufacturer.

Fan noise for me is essentially irrelevant. Not that my Dell makes that much noise anyway. I am normally listening to music while I work, and when gaming there's in game sound.

Speaker quality is shit on either laptop. My cheap speaker/subwoofer set that is connected to the docking system is leagues better than the laptop speaker (that I never use anyway).

Touchpad is... as bad as any other touchpad? I use a mouse for a reason.

Battery life is the only thing a MacBook would have in its favor. Again, irrelevant. 99% of the time it is plugged into power.

MacBook comes with a major downside of being tied to OSX however. This cannot be understated.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#203

Post by surgical_fire »

sneak wrote: post #137
surgical_fire wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using MacOS for about 5 years, as it is the machine issued by my workplace. And I hate it. It's so much worse than Linux that it's not even a joke. Hell, I think I would have preferred to work on Windows with WSL than this crap. The hardware is not even that good. I presume people like it because it looks slick and serves as a status symbol.

I didn’t realize you were joking until the second paragraph.

The only joke here is people white-knighting for a manufacturer of luxury toys.

How dare someone doesn't like a MBP?

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#204

Post by askonomm »

culopatin wrote: post #201
askonomm wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I have the same feelings about Linux. So many bugs and glitches that it really feels like nobody actually tests anything. And Windows, while I don't remember any weird glitches, just has so many ads that it makes me feel like I'm browsing some sort of yellow newspaper. Almost every update of Windows brings with it new installed apps like Candy Crush or Amazon Prime Video that I never opted into.

Linux is that home made thing that is all function over form, you’re proud of but any time a guest wants to use it you have to be there to make it work, and it’s pretty ugly. Windows is the tacky plasticky thing you bought at Walmart/Amazon. It works, but you’re not putting it out to show anyone. It’s a cheap TV. Apple is the nice expensive thing you got from a design magazine but sometimes you wish they had thought…

The solution then is to use all three interchangeably, like me. You hate them all, but since the hate is spread among all three it is more manageable.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#205

Post by quotemstr »

arghwhat wrote: post #193
quotemstr wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's true that async-signal-safe programming bears some similarities to multi-threaded programming, an interrupt really isn't the same as a thread. Also, there's a lot more you can do in a signal handler than just set a flag: you can longjmp or even make calls to regular functions. For example, one kind of program organization that used to be more common in Unix but that remains legal involves keeping signals m…

> Also, there's a lot more you can do in a signal handler than just set a flag: you can longjmp or even make calls to regular functions. ... As long as the called functions are fully async-signal-safe/reentrant. It used to be even more sensitive, in that not all register state was correctly saved/restored on Linux. (On the fabled plan9, where signals are replaced with arbitrary-text "notes", the issue is even bigger…

> As long as the called functions are fully async-signal-safe/reentrant.

That is not accurate. If I have a single-threaded program sitting around a ppoll(2) loop and a signal can arrive only inside my main loop ppoll(), then I know a priori that my signal handler can't be interrupting non-reentrant code and so I can call whatever I want inside it.

> It used to be even more sensitive, in that not all register state was correctly saved/restored on Linux.

Don't confuse architectural flaws with implementation bugs. I'm reminded of an argument on emacs-devel in which someone argued that we couldn't call malloc(3) in a multi-threaded program because one beta version of glibc once had a thread safety bug in the malloc implementation.

> SIGBUS is a POSIX-way to deal with mmap truncation, but sealed memfds can be used to avoid the issue altogether.

Sealing a file descriptor doesn't physically seal a USB key into a USB port. :-) You also get SIGBUS on IO failures on mmaped files, and surprise removal is an IO failure. There's really no alternative to a synchronous signal here --- a regular file being mmap()ed isn't a userfaultfd.

IMHO, I think it's crying shame that Hotspot (last time I checked --- maybe it's fixed?) doesn't watch for SIGBUS on access to MappedByteBuffer and translate surprise USB device file removal into a nice clear VM-level exception.

Even for cases for which userfaultfd can work, a synchronous signal can be more efficient because it involves just one entry into the kernel. (sigreturn is optional.) I'd really hate to give up the conventional signal mechanism entirely, although of course I approve of things like signalfd and userfault that reduce the need for signal handling.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#206

Post by 23ioj2oij23 »

MacOS is the worst OS on planet. I lost all my data after MacOS updated to 14.x from 13.x, because the laptop stopped starting after update and apple employees have to factory reset the entire system. And unlike any other laptop, where you can just remove hard drive and save your data, this is not possible on Apple devices, because HDD cannot be removed... Also since 14.x in on my laptop, it restarts EVERY SINGLE DAY. I also have a lot of other issues, but I will not write a book here. This was the last time I bought something from Apple.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#207

Post by quotemstr »

arghwhat wrote: post #186
quotemstr wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "bizarre" at all. It's a direct translation of hardware CPU traps to userspace API. That's what signal handers are : virtualized interrupts! There's nothing wrong with using signals to achieve performance levels otherwise not possible.

This did not improve performance, it was just an unnecessary hack. The authors agree, as they removed it realizing it was not an optimization. UNIX signals are in no way or form direct translations of hardware CPU traps. The kernel handles hardware traps, which may or may not lead to UNIX signals. Heck, with userfaultfd, a different userspace process could be handling, or injecting, the fault! Not to mention VMs, whe…

Please, knock it off with the value judgements. "Ill-advised" according to whom? You? Why should your opinion prevail?

> This did not improve performance, it was just an unnecessary hack

Well, the Android VM certainly uses a signal mechanism for safepoints and stack overflow checking, for a reason (https://android.googlesource.com/platform/art/+/master/runti...) (both latency and code size), so don't sit there and tell me that the VM running the world's most popular OS is pessimizing itself pointlessly.

> The kernel handles hardware traps, which may or may not lead to UNIX signals.

Not all traps result in signals, and not all signals are traps. Nevertheless, the POSIX signals API is the means through which Unix OSes provide user programs the ability to interact with CPU traps. (Windows does the same thing, morally, with SEH and vectored exception handling --- https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/debug/vector...). Any decent OS should provide applications with the tools they need to make full use of the underlying hardware. All these anti-signals people are just arguing that programs be bigger and slower, because they can't make full use of all the hardware features of the system, out of, ultimately, an aesthetic objection to signal handling.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#208

Post by nicwolff »

nihilius wrote: post #197
okamiueru wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a special kind of stubbornness that makes it so that a file manager doesn't have support for cut and paste, in order to move files. The answer to most "it's a bit dumb that MacOS doesn't let you / forces you to" is "install app X, Y, Z". - Don't like that apple's "Music" app pops up when you connect a Bluetooth headset? => Install an app. - Want to be able to "alt tab" through windows of the same program, or in…

Finder cut and paste is cmd+c then cmd+option+v for move. On the rest I agree.

Which is pretty counter-intuitive: it's "copy", then "paste but delete the original"? Much more natural to remember ⌘-c, ⌘-delete, change folders and ⌘-v.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#209

Post by lupusreal »

vbezhenar wrote: post #111
addicted wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reputation was well earned when Linux on the Desktop wasn’t as easy or friendly as it is today and was severely lacking good quality GUI applications. Windows was a virus laden mess and was not useful for running Linux apps. And besides the flaws of the other OS’es, OS X had some of the nicest window management features (Expose from the Snow Leopard is still my favorite window switcher), was a UNIX and had a thri…

Here are few particular things that I like about development in my mac: 1. Terminal is very usable, compared to Windows cmd. Modern Gnome Terminal is good, though. 2. Cmnd+C for copy, Ctrl+C for SIGINT. 3. Touch ID instead of root password, which works with Bluetooth keyboard as well, and that's with absolutely minimal configuration, uncommenting single line.

> Cmnd+C for copy, Ctrl+C for SIGINT.

Can't compete with the streamlined easy of highlight-to-copy. I never use a keyboard shortcut to copy text from a terminal (except for yanking in vim / evil-mode)

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#210

Post by lupusreal »

self_awareness wrote: post #177
ggpsv wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having used iTerm2 and macOS for a long time, Alacritty in Windows with WSL2 and a Linux distro is a much better experience.

To be fair, I think it's very subjective, given the fact that Alacritty doesn't even support tabs (by design). Also I find a simple Konsole on KDE+Linux superior for every Windows and macOS setup (including iTerm2).

I find iTerm2 to be slightly better than Konsole in a handful of small ways, like having a built-in quake mode instead of having to use yakuake instead (which comes with various little oddities relative to konsole), ability to add colors to tabs, etc.

That said, iTerm2 isn't good enough to make me use MacOS again.

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