It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…
Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?
201–210 of 404 posts
Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
I love debating this with people but ultimately it's just playing games with semantics. The notion of artificial x natural is very recent and very localized. Some cultures would differentiate raw from cooked in a similar sense. But it's like talking about what is really green vs what is really blue. Completely circular since it depends on the definitions of the terms.
It's easily extendable to the animal world as well. Is a nest created by a bird or a den created by one of various mammals natural or artificial? Is a nest made by mice in my garage from synthetic fabrics, flexible plastics, and whatever plant matter it can find natural or synthetic? My wife was recently asked to make a meal for someone who didn't eat "processed" foods. What level of manipulation needs to happen befo…
But your idea that people are failing to use Standard English and creating language subcultures around peculiar meanings of artificial/processed/chemical vs natural/homemade/organic is itself based on a very artificial distribution of language.
Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there evidence of consciousness in a rock?
There isn’t the same kind of ontological boundary in a rock, as there is an organism. My hunch is: there’s a low-grade subjectivity/qualia to all of the universe, which would include the particles of the rock, but the rock would not experience an independent “rock-ness”. The consciousness of organisms are perhaps more like a dissociative state, analogous to a gravity well of subjectivity, such that the qualia are con…
Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?
#204"Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe? (arxiv.org)" Easily answered: * We don't know how consciousness comes into being, indeed we can't rigorously define it or unambiguously identify its presence or absence. * We believe we have it, but we aren't sure whether other animals and/or objects possess it. * Therefore, based on Occam's razor, we may provisionally assume that all ma…
Consciousness and life are completely different things. The article doesn't even mention consciousness.
> Therefore it follows that ... wait for it ... life is not a special state of matter or energy
It is special in the sense that it's remarkably complex e.g. compared to a mineral. It is not special in the sense that it obeys the same laws as a mineral.
> Therefore the emergence of life doesn't represent a phase transition that confronts physical laws or requires an explanation
No one claims it confronts physical laws. In my understanding, the article states: life may emerge naturally as molecules bump into each other, combine and eventually become complex enough that self-sustaining/self-replicating systems can come into being by chance. This process might be deterministic enough that it happens everywhere roughly at the same time (on a cosmological time scale).
Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?
#205Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?
#206Can't help but wonder, is AI an expected phase transition in the evolution of life in the universe? Is life really just the larval stage of a higher order intelligence?
There's a clear definition in chemistry and it has analogies in cosmology as the entire universe overall went through some early phase transitions in the vacuum state when it was of much greater average density. These are all related to qualititative changes in the properties of matter as temperature and density change.
I would grant that life is a qualitatively different state of matter but it isn't as obvious as the more familiar phase transitions. We don't have a clear demarcation for what is and isn't life. This paper attempts to give a definition, but the fact that that is being done at all shows there isn't one already that is universally agreed-upon, unlike the definition of what is solid versus what is liquid. I guess all life we're aware of consists minimally of a semi-permeable barrier, ingests and stores energy inside of this barrier, and locally reduces entropy inside the barrier while dissipating heat and/or other byproducts into its environment.
Life is, of course, not the only thing that does this. My house fits the same description. The only real line in the sand we have between things we consider alive and things we consider tools is that things we consider alive are all born and descended from other living creatures, not assembled from found or fabricated parts.
Ultimately, though, this is a difference in origin, not a difference in quality or capability. Any tool, including electronic computing devices, can potentially have all of the same qualities as life if we could figure out how to make them self-assembling, self-healing, and self-reproducing. I guess we can do this with software, but it isn't obvious to me how to even demarcate a unit of "software" as an individual entity. How to demarcate intelligent from unintelligent software is even less clear, but nothing about the underlying state of matter the computations run on is any different, so I don't see how it involves anything we can call a phase transition without severely straining the term.
Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't understand this view at all. We are what we are. Entropy is a concept in our mind and heat death is a very particular phenomenon that depends on the systems experiencing it being very specifically defined in ways that the Universe cannot be. We are. Descartes had the right idea. The experience of consciousness is irreducible. To say "we are atoms thinking" and variations thereof is utterly meaningless. All wo…
> Existence is a property of consciousness. Kant would vehemently disagree. Not that I'm a Kantian, but he makes some pretty good points. So I think there's a lot of work here that needs to be done to make your argument stronger.
It is even debatable what points he really made. As always in philosophy.
Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
Never heard of it, but it seems to give a good digest of the format. Unfortunately, it seems aimed at non-academic crackpots. It doesn't even award points for vacuous mentioning Schrödinger or Kant.
I was really turned off by the mention of Kant at first, but reading on it's relevant to the discussion. This is a real scientist applying Kant's idea to real phenomena in a useful way. Please read the paper in detail.
If we take their writing as some form of evidence for it, they claim children inherit your Parts, but that's not true. They also imply that Parts cannot exist outside the Whole, which is patently false when taken literally. But in the loose sense in which they seem to use it, I could totally see a piano as a Whole: keys, snares, hammers, sound board, it doesn't make sense outside a piano. Also, notable features of life aren't included nor implied by the concept Whole.
They also call Collectively Autocatalytic Sets an "established mathematical theory", but it's a mathematical property that can be true of some domain. It doesn't prove anything. There aren't any proofs involving that property in the paper either. Later they call it a "chemical reaction system," which seems to be more to the point, but there are so many of those.
It's just another idea, and not an original one either. Wikipedia: "Autocatalytic sets constitute just one of several current theories of life." That Autocatalytic sets by itself isn't enough to explain life may be a point, but there's no reason to assume they've found the magical ingredient in Kant.
Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?
#209It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…
Check out the work of Ilya Prigogine - he won a Nobel prize in the 70's for his work on self-organizing complexity. There is a selection force in the universe for increasing complexity, being driven by the dissipation of energy. When you have systems in non-equilibrium, there is a strong pressure to explore the possibility space to find ever more efficient ways to dissipate energy. A bacteria the size of a grain of s…
Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?
#210This proves something, but I'm not sure what...