Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#201

Post by trashtester » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 10:56 AM UTC

JohnMakin wrote: post #53

ndepoel wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI has increased the perception of productivity to unwitting managers, which is a dangerous pit to be falling into. It's like a lot of those fabled 10x engineers that I've run into over the years; they may seem like they're incredibly productive and managers love them, but in reality their work is so riddled with issues and rushed half-baked ideas, that they end up costing the other engineers on the team 10x the amou…

Is your assertion that 10x engineers don’t exist? Because I assure you that is false, regardless what your personal experiences may be.

There are also 100x engineers and probably even some 1000x+ engineers.

These are the kind of people who cook up something like git when they take a one year sabbatical from their main project.

Or even hardware people like Jim Keller.

10x engineers are plentiful if you define the median engineer as 1x. There are a LOT of mediocre engineers out there to draw the median down.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#202

Post by lgkk » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 10:57 AM UTC

sinuhe69 wrote: post #127

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

Unions kill innovation, at least in US. And 10-20% of people do the actual work so 80-90% can have the time to complain nonstop while making 400k plus.

As an American I don’t really use that many cutting edge tools from Europe on a daily basis. Maybe my Miele vac.

On the other hand almost everyone in the world uses something made by American corporations.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#203

Post by Madmallard » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 10:58 AM UTC

jillesvangurp wrote: post #83

nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

Better put, the relationship you have with your employer is a business relation ship. It's not personal. They are not your friends, nor your enemies. It's simply a convenient arrangement between the two of you for as long as that lasts. And it might become convenient for either side to change that arrangement at any point. The more you earn, the higher the risk that at some point somebody decides that they want to sp…

The problem with this is if you leave awful companies after not working there for very long then new companies will not want to hire you.

It doesn't work both ways. They only get the benefits. You do not.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#204

Post by fifteen1506 » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 10:59 AM UTC

nusl wrote: post #109

steveridout wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point but I don't think it's that clear cut. Twitter/X seemed to increase the pace of product changes directly after laying of the majority of its employees after Elon Musk took over. Also, when Steve Jobs returned to lead apple in 1997 he fired a significant fraction of the company before starting an incredible period of innovation. So I think a lot depends on the leadership and incentive structures.

Twitter laid most of their staff off then Musk gave them an ultimatum of: commit every day, all day, sleep at the office, to Twitter, or get fired. I wonder why there was more work produced in that period.

Maybe because most are on H-1B and thus have no other option than to sacrifice personal life to have a job and not be deported?

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#205

Post by oblio » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 10:59 AM UTC

abirch wrote: post #120

goodpoint wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your money have come a full cycle :) Until the huge bubble around tech companies explodes.

Tech (Meta, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, and Alphabet) is pretty profitable with reasonable P/Es.

Reasonable by 2024 standards or by 1990 standards? I'm fairly sure that the P/Es of today would have been considered overvalued a few decades ago, when profits actually meant something, dividends were handed out, etc.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#206

Post by laurels-marts » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 11:00 AM UTC

sinuhe69 wrote: post #127

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

As a European I'm curious which unions and industries are you talking about? I've been working tech or tech-adjacent jobs my entire life here and I've never been in a union nor do I know any friends (developers / designers) that are in a union. And I'm going to conferences and meetups on a regular. I'm not saying unions don't exist (probably more so in certain industries), but for devs to be in a union in Europe? Never heard of it.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#207

Post by jack_riminton » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 11:00 AM UTC

knallfrosch wrote: post #199

mindwok wrote: post #98

I'm surprised to see so many comments here taking layoffs personally, or talking about how layoffs are stupid. Layoffs are not personal, and the corollary to that is that you should never treat your company as a friend. It's a company trying to maximize value. Also, layoffs do work. Almost every large, successful company has done them at some stage. They are an expected, and necessary, part of operating a company and…

It's even more surprising since SWEs coming from Google don't really have problems finding new jobs or staying afloat until their next job anyway.

And a lot have sailed by doing very little work compared to other jobs

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#208

Post by baq » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 11:00 AM UTC

sabellito wrote: post #55

steveridout wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point but I don't think it's that clear cut. Twitter/X seemed to increase the pace of product changes directly after laying of the majority of its employees after Elon Musk took over. Also, when Steve Jobs returned to lead apple in 1997 he fired a significant fraction of the company before starting an incredible period of innovation. So I think a lot depends on the leadership and incentive structures.

Twitter has lost 70% of its value since Elon took over.

Which it only had because Musk thrown out a number and people fought very very hard to make him stick to it. If he wasn't such a dumbass and forfeit due diligence, this wouldn't be the story.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#209

Post by sz4kerto » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 11:01 AM UTC

otikik wrote: post #108

nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

I see what you are saying. I am an engineer-turned-EM and you don't know me, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt: > Your job is NOT safe. Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. I think a better way to put it is: "A job is not your family, and a job is not your identity. Yo…

I disagree and I am sad that we're teaching each other to be skeptical and cynical.

The company is not your friend and not your enemy, I agree. However, people _do_ develop personal relationship with each other. Sometimes even across the different levels in the company hierarchy. Yes, as with any other relationship, circumstances and interests might override this, but relationships still do matter. People have emotions, and there are managers who're not psychopats and find it very hard to e.g. let people go.

And yes, value yourself, absolutely. And your job is not your family or your identity, and manage risk, and there are bad bosses and bad company cultures. But it's not uniform.

But please don't think that nobody cares about you in your workplace and you're a completely fungible cog. It's a horrible life to live. Let's not tell the already cynical young people that this is how the world works.

Even at big, bureaucratic companies like big investment banks, if you're at a certain level (not that high), eventually you'll mostly be taken care of. Not everyone and not always, but e.g. if you're an ED at an investment bank, you can have a job for life, maybe not at your current place forever, but the industry will take care of you. Similarly if you've been at dunno, Mercedes for 15 years and you're not the bottom 20 percent in terms of performance, then it's kinda guaranteed that you'll have a job in the auto industry forever.

People who have been let go from Google today can have an extremely lucrative job forever in the industry.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#210

Post by baq » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 11:01 AM UTC

infotainment wrote: post #99

sabellito wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter has lost 70% of its value since Elon took over.

Important business lessons from Twitter: try not to antagonize your biggest customers, because they might stop buying your products. In addition, if this occurs, make sure to blame external factors or wide-ranging conspiracies.

Another important lesson: do your DD when you buy a company