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Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

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Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#201

Post by Pesthuf »

This three class developer system on iOS is ridiculous. There's the normal developer who can do little more on iOS that you couldn't also do with a web app. There's the "blessed" developer with special entitlements that lets them violate the privacy of their users in new and fun ways and also provide features nobody else can so the normal developers can't compete with their app. And then there's Apple and for their apps, the restrictions everyone else has to deal with are little more than suggestions. Wouldn't want third party apps to compete with Apple's on their own platform.

If there's a legitimate use for these entitlements, everyone should be able to use them. And the ultimate choice for what an App should and shouldn't be able to do should be in the users' hands. But Apple needs to protect their shareholders from this horrid vision of the future.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#202

Post by lxgr »

kiririn wrote: post #189
MBCook wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain apps have always gotten special treatment. If it’s big enough to mess with phone sales they’re allowed nonsense a normal dev would be permanently banned for. Ex: all the stuff FB has been caught doing over the years My understanding (no first hand experience) is that WeChat and Alipay are basically required in China. If a phone doesn’t have them, it’s worthless and won’t sell. So naturally they too can do non…

See also McDonald’s being allowed to gate app functionality behind background location access

That’s adjudication of “soft” rules around permission optionality, which is a big problem, but nothing that lets apps bypass permissions outright.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#203

Post by lxgr »

rpigab wrote: post #197
stavros wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does apple get to decide which app gets automatic access to my private data, on my device, without needing to ask me?

If every big app had to interrupt users to ask for simple things like performing http calls, usability would take a little hit, the nice "UX flow" of apple is a major selling point, so a very small percentage would buy Android phones.

Determining my house or even room level location is not at all equivalent to making an HTTP call.

And Apple does generally prompt for location permissions, as does Google on Android.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#204

Post by rsync »

sneeze-slayer wrote: post #187
rsync wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know I sound like a broken record but I really do think app stores owe us the ability to see, in advance, what permissions an app will request. I shouldn’t have to download and install the app just to see what kind of behaviors it is going to attempt. The app stores know this information and it would be trivially easy to present it in the details of the app prior to down loading.

In the Play store it is possible to see what permissions are required and data is collected.

I wonder if it is possible, as an Apple developer, to query "permissions requested" via some other channel ?

I don't know anything about the ways Apple developers interface with the app store to submit or update or index their apps ... is it through xcode ?

I wonder if there is some function in that toolchain that actually does what I am proposing ...

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#205

Post by mrguyorama »

lxgr wrote: post #195
facialwipe wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving the world’s most valuable corporation the benefit of the doubt. This is an interesting worldview to have in 2023.

It’s a pretty obscure API, and Apple has a strong interest in at least being perceived as pro user privacy. And assuming for a second this is indeed an intentional backdoor in plain sight of the world: What’s in it for Apple? Hanlon’s razor still cuts in 2023, at least for me.

>Apple has a strong interest in at least being perceived as pro user privacy.

Perceived is doing a lot of lifting there. The public largely cannot audit Apple's ACTUAL security.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#207

Post by joshstrange »

dang wrote: post #190

We've heard complaints that this title is overstated, and I'd be happy to replace it with a better (i.e. more accurate and neutral) one, if anyone has a suggestion?

"iOS apps can track a user via SSID scan with a special entitlement"

I think that best describes it? Not sure but I agree the title as-is doesn't really ring true after reading the article.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#208

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

madeofpalk wrote: post #153
stavros wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does apple get to decide which app gets automatic access to my private data, on my device, without needing to ask me?

You buy Apple hardware, which is a pretty strong signal that you trust Apple.

Two party marketplace. I don’t trust Apple, but the competition is not any better.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#209

Post by samstave »

ethbr1 wrote: post #194
samstave wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The complexities and capabilities in the Chinese(well, most asia) mobile market are remarkable. I always find it funny when people boast about how great certain things are in the US without ever have traveled to HK, Singapore, Tokyo, Beijing etc... Most people dont realize just how entangled mobile life is in Asia, way more than in the US.

Centralized superapps seem incredibly dangerous to privacy, given that the limited mobile privacy models are designed around per-app permissions. 1. Create app that does 1 thing 2. Add more features to app 3. Abuse superset of permissions 4. Gov leans on app owner 5. Gov abuses superset of permissions

No, I more than 100% agree, I am just staing that most people just dont realize just how deeply entangled the mobile is to Asian life. I wasn't praising it, I am horrified, but also in awe by it.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#210

Post by woah »

iamcalledrob wrote: post #114
eduction wrote: post #40

I thought users were prompted to give permission for this already? I get asked if I want to give “local network” access to apps sometimes (- lot these days actually) which I take to mean the ability to see local WiFi hotspots. I almost always deny this (and after reading this just turned it off for Spotify). I think the dialog that asks for permission could be improved, though, as most people don’t realize this can b…

As a developer, the annoying thing about the "Local Network" permission is that: 1) It's poorly implemented. Unlike other permissions, there's no way to explicitly trigger the prompt. It just pops up at Apple's discretion. There's no way to give it a "soft landing" for cases where it's necessary for core app features. And there's no way to check if the permission has been granted or not. 2) More importantly: Apple's…

The developer of the Camera app already has access to all the photos in your Photos app. What benefit would a prompt have for the user?
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