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3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

minnesotareformer.com

201–210 of 245 posts

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least six babies were killed; that's mass murder. It was done in cold blood, planned out ahead of time. The death penalty was the only fitting sentence.

>that's mass murder. Unless you can show that someone adulterated the product with the specific intent of causing death, it isn't. Causing someone to die through negligence, recklessness or indifference is manslaughter, not murder.

They knew what they were doing would kill people and did it anyway with that knowledge. The fact that their motivation was profit instead of the deaths doesn't make it not murder.

If I intend to enrich myself my taking all the money in an armored car and the deaths of the security guards I'll have to shoot my way through is just some side effect to me, not my intent by neither my concern, that's still murder.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish more people were aware of how damaging bad science is, even when it is well intentioned. Environmental studies are often littered with double counting and creative data framing. One faked study does more to convince people global warming is over blown than 100 rigorous studies showing that it isn't.

The reason people think climate change is overblown is because it challenges them to think about changing their way of life ie directly goes against their interests, not because some dataset has been poorly interpreted in a study they haven't read. (Also because fossil fuel people kept financing fake science for decades and are actively participating in culture wars around it)

> The reason people think climate change is overblown is because it challenges them to think about changing their way of life ie directly goes against their interests…

I don’t think the vast, vast majority of people actually care that much. It’s a vocal minority on all sides. Most people just want to pay their bills, have food/clothing/shelter covered, and try to muddle through this life thing.

I would posit that the vast, vast majority of people have little say or impact as it pertains to climate change, they just don’t have the means or mental bandwidth to effect change.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#203

This is what happens when the EPA's rules state chemical companies, can more or less, police themselves. We've detected PFOAs in rainwater/clouds, in the artic, etc (See https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.2c02765 ) They are going to lead to further health problems down the road.

If I understand correctly, those chemicals don't go away unless destroyed with highly sophisticated and expensive methods. They will continue to accumulate in concentration and cause more impact over time.

They do go away, but it depends on numerous factors. In humans, if you have polymorphisms in various genes relating to GSH detoxification, the half life could increase. (in theory)

half-lives of long-chain PFAS were longer than those of short-chain compounds, reaching almost 3 years in some cases. Some studies estimated the average half-lives for PFHxS at 2.86 years and L-PFOS (a specific form of perfluorooctane sulfonic acid, C8) at 2.91 years. In comparison, the short-chain PFPeS had an estimated average half-life of 0.63 years, and perfluoroheptane sulfonic acid (PFHpS, C7) concentrations were 1.46 years. The shortest estimated half-lives were for perfluorobutanoic acid (PFBA, C4) at 0.12 years and perfluoroheptanoic acid (PFHpA, C7) at 0.17 years.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#204

Ever wonder if things like this lead to companies intentionally avoiding environmental research? We need to find some way to align our interests, this seems like a dead end path. We are unintentionally incentivizing the disruption of environmental research.

It's not about the research itself, it's about what happened after the discovery of danger. If their research discovers harm and they discontinue the product promptly, that should be a mitigating factor. If their research discovers harm and they continue, that should be a severely compounding punishment. That promotes research because it mitigates company risk.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#205
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> despite saying they're "harmful", they've been everywhere for all these decades that a lot of other measures of quality of life have been increasing? Might be unrelated (or not), but cancer rates have been exploding the last decades. Example via Google-Fu: > Cancer cases in under-50s worldwide up nearly 80% in three decades, study finds https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/05/cancer-cases...

>cancer rates have been exploding the last decades For reasons that are really quite well-understood. PFASs are not known to be significantly carcinogenic, particularly not at the miniscule levels most people are exposed to. We willingly fill ourselves with things that are definitely very carcinogenic - processed meat, alcohol, tobacco smoke, diesel fumes, etc etc ad nauseum. Exposure to some of these carcinogens has…

Funny, you quoted the same one as me in another thread. That is a really good paper. Worth pasting on a top level thread.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of crimes that deserve death. We don’t impose it because we’re unsure about culpability. But if you did it, you do indeed deserve to die.

>There are plenty of crimes that deserve death. In your opinion. In the opinion of many others, there is no crime that deserves death, hence the widespread abolition of the death penalty in developed countries. We used to execute people for stealing cattle and I imagine that many people at the time though that it was an entirely right and proper punishment. A jurisdiction that uses the death penalty with any real fre…

I don’t support it because it’s irrevocable, but that’s the reason to oppose it. Some crimes do deserve it, even if we don’t impose it every time.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except we live in a capitalistic nightmare, the solution proposed is textbook free market and socialism would have not created this nightmare to begin with. people on HN regularly confuse state capitalism with socialism and I can't wrap my head around on why. the two systems couldn't be more different and actually the USSR was not socialist, Stalin was not socialist, that's the biggest fabrication in modern human his…

I would suggest you read up on the history of both communism and socialism and their relationship with pollution and their environment. In a capitalist systems at least there are incentives to get businesses to create better systems over time, that doesn't exist in any other system.

> their relationship with pollution and their environment

turns out they had a pretty marginal role in it, compared to the grand total, except maybe the first generation of nuclear weapons USSR produced, that were sealed off and very hard, if not impossible, to defuse.

Anyway communism and socialism are not exactly the same thing, you can't put them together in the same basket and can't generalize. Communism in Italy was not the same as communism in Cuba which was not the same as communism in East Germany which was not the same as communism in Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Congo etc

> In a capitalist systems at least there are incentives to get businesses to create better systems over time

I would gladly see some proof that one does produce the incentive (and the incentive produces a radical change for the better) while the other doesn't.

My opinion is that socialism does not scale too well when the community becomes too big, but capitalism produces inherently more distortions and inequalities that need to be addressed in a never ending vice cycle of crisis that hit hard the poor and virtually spares the wealthy.

Anyway my comment was more on the line of "socialism is not what people usually think it is or associate it with in the USA (or the west)"

America called it a socialist system because it wanted to defame and demonize socialism. The Soviet Union called their government socialist because that was a popular and celebrated term in Europe, despite totalitarian control having nothing to do with true, democratic socialism (where workers are also the owners and have democratic control over their workplace and government).

As Noam Chomsky pointed out, it was state capitalism run by a fascist regime, fascists that when they ruled non so-caledd socialist countries, the west, but I should more correctly say the USA and the UK, admired because in their view (and the propaganda) they defeated socialism and communism. In truth the people of the Soviet Union had no control over the means of production or control over their lives and were essentially slaves. It would be the same as if Stalin came to power in America, created a fascist police state, used coercive force to protect criminal banks, evicted people unjustly from their homes, suppressed protests and broke up unions, then lavished massive subsidies on big companies, gave tax breaks to the rich, allowed large corporations to pay nothing in taxes while cutting programs to help the poor, rigged all their elections with the aid of corporate media, and then proudly called this a "free-market capitalist and democratic system that represents the will of the people."

In other words, just because politicians often appropriate popular words for their own twisted means, that doesn't make what they say true.

To me, an Italian that looks at the American politics from afar, sounds not dissimilar to Trump's manifesto and some parts not too far from what we associate the USA with here, today.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#208
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a huge problem across the board; industry and congress have been steadily stripping federal agencies of staff/budget, authority, etc. Congress long figured out how to kill off regulation that is publicly popular: strangle the agency budget-wise, not appoint new department leaders, etc. Adding ever-increasing paperwork is also popular. OSHA has the lowest number of inspectors in ~45 years. The agency is about…

OSHA may have the lowest # of inspectors in ~45 years, but the rate of worker deaths is also at just about its lowest over that same time period - so not sure the # of inspectors is really relevant. More is not always better. Worker deaths in America are down—on average, from about 38 worker deaths a day in 1970 to 13 a day in 2020. Worker injuries and illnesses are down—from 10.9 incidents per 100 workers in 1972 to…

I mean, we lost all our manufacturing in that time period. We have far more service jobs (e.g. not inherently dangerous) in the economy now compared to 1970.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#209
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason people think climate change is overblown is because it challenges them to think about changing their way of life ie directly goes against their interests, not because some dataset has been poorly interpreted in a study they haven't read. (Also because fossil fuel people kept financing fake science for decades and are actively participating in culture wars around it)

> The reason people think climate change is overblown is because it challenges them to think about changing their way of life ie directly goes against their interests… I don’t think the vast, vast majority of people actually care that much. It’s a vocal minority on all sides. Most people just want to pay their bills, have food/clothing/shelter covered, and try to muddle through this life thing. I would posit that the…

Anecdata: I tell a relative that climate is going to get hotter and more variable and that said relative should be concerned that an unaffordable electricity bill may be in the cards (Houston anyone?). Relative's response: the governing authorities won't let that happen. Me:

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#210
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That one always makes me sad – imagine how different our world would have been if, say, they’d gone to Carter and offered to go public with the data in exchange for help decarbonizing. He’d have gotten his French-style civilian nuclear power program, they’d probably have been able to successfully shift into emerging green industries with their enormous resources, and we wouldn’t have an expensively cultivated anti-sc…

The anti-science political movement was in effect long before Carter. He tried to switch to the metric system and was opposed on cultural grounds as one example. But look back to Darwin and Galileo and you’ll see a long standing pattern. Sadly, at this point it looks like it will doom us.

I’m not saying it wasn’t there – Scopes, for example – but pumping many billions of dollars into it really amped it up, especially when it turned opposition to science into a Republican primary filter. While the southern realignment was unfolding, science denial was visible in both parties (e.g. William Proxmire, D-WI) but that was not as pronounced in the age of the space race and the science-dependent Cold War. That changed between the tobacco and fossil fuel companies’ enormous lobbying efforts, and you’ll recognize many of the same “experts” trotted out to explain why environmentalism, public health, or anything else which affects those companies’ bottom lines.
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