Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm on a 27" 4K IPS screen here and have to squint/zoom in to see the difference the author is writing about. While it's nice some people really care for the best result I think most people aren't going to notice or care about it.
I'm guess it's also true that HN is definitely the wrong audience for this post. As the author suggests, if you spend all day in VScode/VIM, you're among the segment of computer users who looks at images the least as a percentage of time spent on a computer.
WebP is so great except it's not (2021)
201–210 of 411 posts
Re: WebP is so great except it's not (2021)
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
But why should it be worse than JPEG in that respect? It's a much newer format and supposedly much better.
It's just a happy accident that the way JPEG compresses things and smooths them out visually happens to be an advantage in this particular edge case.
WebP is based off of a video format, and tradeoffs there are very different.
Re: WebP is so great except it's not (2021)
#203I opened the first two pictures in separate tabs and switched quickly between them. There is zero difference. Tried it on two different monitors, Chrome and Firefox. Same with the pictures of the guy at the end. EDIT: The last comparison is webp twice, he linked it wrong. Here is the jpg one, still no difference: https://eng.aurelienpierre.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/20...
There's definitely very ugly "banding" going on in the gradients on the WebP versions i say as someone who's worked extensively with UX and interfaces.
I'm on a M2 Macbook Air.
Re: WebP is so great except it's not (2021)
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm sorry, but I just can't read the text with those st and ct ligatures. The whole font is bad. It looks pixilated and blurry, which can only be explained by that being the intended look. It's bizarre.
It doesn't look pixelated on my machine, it looks pretty nice - here's a screenshot at 200% zoom: https://i.imgur.com/WE1tbIB.png The ligatures are definitely an unusual artistic choice...seems like the sort of thing you'd finally get used to 4 chapters into a book, but until you're immersed in it, it's quote distracting.
But I'm not going to judge it by how it looks after I do a manual adjustment. The way it's presented is terrible. It somehow manages not to fit into the pixel grid of my 15-inch 3840x2160 screen. These are not large pixels!
Re: WebP is so great except it's not (2021)
#205The banding is SUPER monitor dependent, its noticeable on my 4k monitor, super apparent on a different monitor with a terrible LCD panel, and not at all visible on my iPad. I wonder if the author took that into consideration.
As a video codec developer I was a little sad about that, actually. I had to start looking closer to see problems.
Re: WebP is so great except it's not (2021)
#206It's such a shame Google decided to block adoption of JPEG XL: it's a strict improvement over classic JPEG (you can losslessly reencode JPEG to JXL and reduce the size, due to a better entropy coder in JXL!) and JXL has various other upgrades compared to 'classic' JPEG. In the meantime, let's hope AVIF or whatever manages to pick up the slack, and/or other browsers decide en masse to support JPEG XL anyway; that woul…
I must admit, I'm not sure why JPEG XL is viewed so favourably on HN, it's not something I know a ton about, but my understanding is that the big advantage of AVIF is that you can reuse hardware decoders built into devices for AV1 for the images. It being a strict improvement over JPEG is nice for the developers not having to go back to the source image for an upgrade, but that seems like a pretty small benefit that…
But - back to JXL vs WebP:
I think Google had genuinely good intentions with WebP, but the effort was somewhat ruined by their culture: they relied too heavily on metrics which aren't always a good proxy for image quality, because humans looking at pictures don't scale, and Google does things that scale. We now have a codec with good metrics, but looks poor.
It's based on the intraframe coding of the VP8 format - a video codec - and I think it suffers from that. Looks OK in a video, but bad in stills where you have more time to notice its warts
Most importantly, it's almost always produced by recompressing a jpeg and causing a generation loss. I don't know of any phone or camera which produces native WebP (maybe some recent pixels? Dunno), and any professional device used in RAW mode usually implies the participation of someone who cares about the finished product and will not want WebP (and will resent when it's used without their consent by webmasters wishing to tick a box in pagespeed, as the author mentions). JXL has a lossless recompression mode in which it just replaces the Huffmann compression stage of an existing JPEG with something more modern, and this results in a pixel-accurate image which is 20% smaller than the original file - this already eat WebP's claimed space saving, and then some, with no generation loss. Based on this fact alone, there shouldn't even be a discussion.
....but let's have a discussion anyway. A JPEG -> JXL lossless recompression isn't conceptually new - Stuffit (remember them?) did it in 2005, with not enough traction sadly (unsurprisingly since there were patents and licensing costs). Basically it's _still_ a JPEG - if you decompress the final stage of a JPEG, and the final stage of a JXL (or a .SIF), you get the exact same bytestream. While yet another amazing testament of JPEG's longevity and relevance, it is also concerning: How could Google do worse than that??? When basically rezipping (with a modern algo) the existing DCT macroblock bytestream of a 30 year old codec beats your new codec, you should just trash it.
Edit: ...but I forgot to answer your question. Why is JXL viewed so favorably on HN? Because it doesn't suck, and we're sad that Google decided to be a roadblock, and pushing for their own thing, which instead sucks. At least AVIF is way better than WebP, even though it's a monster, computationally.
Re: WebP is so great except it's not (2021)
#207I opened the first two pictures in separate tabs and switched quickly between them. There is zero difference. Tried it on two different monitors, Chrome and Firefox. Same with the pictures of the guy at the end. EDIT: The last comparison is webp twice, he linked it wrong. Here is the jpg one, still no difference: https://eng.aurelienpierre.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/20...
And many people commented the same. These simply aren't small differences.
People who cannot see the differences or who only see them after taking a close look should realize something: there are many people for whom the differences are going to be immediately obvious.
Re: WebP is so great except it's not (2021)
#208I might be missing something because I never delved into it, but my problem with WebP is I can't save images this way from my browser. Well, I can save them, but they don't show up when I try to view them on my system (Ubuntu Mate 20.04 on RPi4).
Re: WebP is so great except it's not (2021)
#209I know this is not constructive and I'm sorry, but I just can't read the text with those st and ct ligatures. It makes me feel like the author is trolling with them and I shouldn't take the text seriously. I know that's an exaggeration but that's what the design makes me feel.
I was going to suggest blocking web fonts with uBlock Origin, but I get them even with JS and fonts blocked. Turns out a CSS rule does this: font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures discretionary-ligatures contextual historical-ligatures;
Re: WebP is so great except it's not (2021)
#210Outside of photographers, how many people are looking at super high-resolution images on the web? Even images that might have high-resolution versions are usually converted to a shrunken image 600px wide to fit inside the website's theme scaffolding. Is that really even worth shaving 15% off the file size? If bandwidth matters, websites should look to reduce the volume of useless stock images littering their template…
Additionally, I believe countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, ... are in similar situation infrastructure wise (please correct me if I am wrong) and so for 1/2B people would benefit from a slimmer web.