Live data from Hacker News

Privacy is priceless, but Signal is expensive

signal.org

201–210 of 965 posts

Re: Privacy is priceless, but Signal is expensive

#201
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I see what you mean. That's not what I'd call iMessage though, that's just SMS: The iOS application is called "Messages"; iMessage is the over-the-top Apple-exclusive messaging service.

Messages inflexible reliance on SMS for communication to non-Apple devices is definitely an Apple issue, in my opinion. Apple has made it clear that they continue to default to SMS for non-iPhone communication solely because it's unpleasant for everyone involved.

What does the default Android messaging app do?

Re: Privacy is priceless, but Signal is expensive

#202
post #2

> Storage: $1.3 million dollars per year. > Servers: $2.9 million dollars per year. > Registration Fees: $6 million dollars per year. > Total Bandwidth: $2.8 million dollars per year. > Additional Services: $700,000 dollars per year. Signal pays more for delivering verification SMS during sign-up, than for all other infrastructure (except traffic) combined. Wow, that sounds excessive.

Twitter said that's why they got rid of the SMS 2FA. They said it was costing millions to have that enabled for them. https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/18/business/twitter-blue-two-fac...

> Twitter said that's why they got rid of the SMS 2FA. They said it was costing millions to have that enabled for them.

Previous Twitter employees have said that this is incorrect. Because Twitter began as an SMS-only (and then SMS-first) application (remember 40404?), they very early on established direct-connection infrastructure for sending SMS, meaning that they have a marginal cost of literally $0.00/message in most markets. Twitter still has to maintain that infrastructure, because they didn't get rid of SMS 2FA - they just restricted it to Twitter Blue users, so the overhead is still the same.

Almost nobody else who delivers SMS today has that infrastructure, because it doesn't make sense for most services to build.

The only place where Twitter was paying significant amounts for SMS was due to SMS pump schemes, which is a consequence of Twitter gutting its anti-spam detection, resulting in them paying for SMS pumping which was previously blocked.

Re: Privacy is priceless, but Signal is expensive

#204
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify - iMessage does not use SMS if you're going from Apple to Apple device and both devices have data/wifi available. iMessage refuses to support messaging to Android clients and defaults to SMS for these messages. I've got an Android phone so all iMessage transmissions come across as SMS (or MMS).

My phone runs Android, I'm pretty much forced to use SMS in order to communicate with anyone who uses an iPhone and that's most of my family. While it can be argued that iMessage provides a good enough experience on an iPhone for most people, I have wondered if they are the one thing keeping SMS alive.

> I have wondered if they are the one thing keeping SMS alive.

Absolutely they are. Most of my friends and family are Pixel users and we all communicate using RCS. If Apple would just support the modern replacement for SMS (which includes end to end encryption), iPhone users would be much safer and would have a better experience.

Re: Privacy is priceless, but Signal is expensive

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to a lot of meetups in the last year and exchanged contacts with people. As a nerdy idealist running a deGoogled Android with no proprietary software, I always have to tell them that I don’t have WhatsApp, just Signal. Again and again I have heard the reply, “Oh, yeah, I’ve got Signal, I use it to buy drugs.” So, that’s some of the active user base in my city, but none of those users are very motivated to u…

> “Oh, yeah, I’ve got Signal, I use it to buy drugs.” Funny, people around here in Germany say that about Telegram.

Buying drugs from shady people online like on Telegram channels is a good way to get you not high or killed. Apparently they're selling HHC now that looks like bud? No thanks. I'll stick to my local guy straight from behind the bushes next to the park.

Re: Privacy is priceless, but Signal is expensive

#206
post #2

> Storage: $1.3 million dollars per year. > Servers: $2.9 million dollars per year. > Registration Fees: $6 million dollars per year. > Total Bandwidth: $2.8 million dollars per year. > Additional Services: $700,000 dollars per year. Signal pays more for delivering verification SMS during sign-up, than for all other infrastructure (except traffic) combined. Wow, that sounds excessive.

Why is it that SMS is so damn expensive? (or more specifically, what is it about Twilio et al's businesses that makes them cost so much?)

When you control access to the customer you can charge people a lot. Just like Apple can take 30% primarily because they’re the gatekeeper to iPhone users, telecoms are gatekeepers to their users so they can charge you a lot to text them. You don’t really have a choice. L

Re: Privacy is priceless, but Signal is expensive

#207
I find this surprising:

> As a small nonprofit organization, we cannot afford to purchase all of the physical computers that are necessary to support everyone who relies on Signal while also placing them in independent data centers around the world. Only a select few of the very largest companies globally are still capable of doing this.

Signal may be “small,” but they’re spending plenty on this. Registration is expensive and hard to do without using one of the large expensive providers. But there’s $7M for servers, storage and bandwidth. These are comparatively easy: servers and storage (especially for a service like this where availability for the substantial majority of the data is not terribly important) come in nice pre-manufactured boxes that can easily saturate 10Gbps and can store quite a few TB at very very high IOPS. [0]. And the forwarding model isn’t very latency sensitive - several hundred ms for most users is fine, and sending media via Signal is quite slow regardless. So having many points of presence doesn’t seem terribly important. I bet that two small colocated facilities could cover all of North America quite nicely.

Bandwidth costs outside the cloud world, at least in North America, are comically cheap compared to the major clouds.

[0] A service like Signal ought to need relatively little processing compared to bandwidth and storage for the data plane. AWS and the like may not have a particular good match in their catalog for this use case.

Re: Privacy is priceless, but Signal is expensive

#208
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Messages inflexible reliance on SMS for communication to non-Apple devices is definitely an Apple issue, in my opinion. Apple has made it clear that they continue to default to SMS for non-iPhone communication solely because it's unpleasant for everyone involved.

There's apparently even "green bubble bullying"[1] of kids who have Android devices and thus have their messages appear different. In this particular way Apple is happy compromising the mental health of young people to secure a larger market share - it's awful and they deserve a lot more negative PR for it. 1. https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-...

> apparently even "green bubble bullying"[1] of kids who have Android devices and thus have their messages appear different

Bullies will bully. Targeting the articles of bullying versus the source is fruitless; the former is unlimited.

Re: Privacy is priceless, but Signal is expensive

#209

Back in the day Signal was called TextSecure and it did everything over SMS which required no centralized infrastructure aside from the cellular networks. They transitioned to internet-based messaging to support Apple devices. It seems that decision is now a 50 million dollar per year step backwards.

Right, I totally hate being able to text, voice, video, send files, and screen share with individuals or groups of people, including half my contacts who use iPhone. Also, fuck them for making all of it sync to all my computers. And I especially hate the fact that I was not billed by telecom carriers for the tens of thousands of messages I've sent and thousands of calls I've made over it over the last 10 years.

Yes, indeed, how backwards. I wish I only used software that spied on me, or permitted others to spy on me, for those features.

Re: Privacy is priceless, but Signal is expensive

#210
post #123

Some of these things raise an eyebrow and I'd like them further broken down (but in the mean time, I'm still donating): * $19 million for 50 staff - That's $338k/head on average. At face value for a nonprofit, I'd like these costs broke down as this seems excessive. There is far cheaper IT labor available outside SV. * 20 petabytes per year of bandwidth, or 20 million gigabytes, to enable voice and video calling alon…

- That's $338k/head on average. At face value for a nonprofit, I'd like these costs broke down as this seems excessive. There is far cheaper IT labor available outside SV. You get what you pay for, though. $338k/year seems like a reasonable salary for people working on something as privacy critical as Signal – just because you're working for a nonprofit doesn't mean you have to work for less competitive wages.

Nonprofits, as with for-profits, must pay competitive wages or they will have trouble getting the expertise that they need. $338k/head seems reasonable when you also consider taxes the company must pay for each employee.
Post reply on HN