Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tell HN: Automatic fraud detection is making my life hell

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 406 posts

Re: Tell HN: Automatic fraud detection is making my life hell

#201

Post by teddyh »

kevstev wrote: post #40
ryandrake wrote: post #4

Every time I travel abroad, some company's poorly thought out software goes bonkers and then it becomes my problem to solve. Hey, companies: People travel. Sometimes very frequently. This is not an edge case or an obscure P3 bug. If you're assuming that a mere sudden change in IP to a different country is "suspicious" then you're doing it wrong. Your software is a mess and can't seem to deal with it. Maybe take a bre…

One thing I try to do to avoid this is to always make a purchase at the airport before I go overseas. This seems to calm down the algos a bit. I used to go through this a bunch too.

“It approves of rereading.”

Re: Tell HN: Automatic fraud detection is making my life hell

#204

Post by miav »

Some comments try to justify this - they’re wrong.

Even if it was just 1% of users, outright ignoring their issues is not acceptable. And far more than 1% travel abroad or do other suspicious activity (such as buying things at a place you’ve never purchased from before).

And there are services that handle this correctly. Starling bank (UK) is a fave of mine. Confirm in an app, enter full password in some cases, but that’s it. I had to make some sketchy looking transactions and no matter, they never block your account or make you jump through additional hoops.

Re: Tell HN: Automatic fraud detection is making my life hell

#205

Post by xkekjrktllss »

RIMR wrote: post #178
Waterluvian wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with many of these examples is that 99% of the time, it is a sign a fraud, and 1% of the time it’s a false positive. That’s the key. It may very well be the wrong business decision to care about this 1%.

I don't think it's safe to write off that 1% if you don't first make sure you understand who that 1% is and how decisions like this, especially at scale, could harm those people. If a person says that they are eligible to work in the USA, that should be taken in good faith. If 99% of applicants are fraudulently answering this question, you're probably doing something wrong and need to figure out what's broken in your…

> I don't think it's safe to write off that 1% if you don't first make sure you understand who that 1% is and how decisions like this, especially at scale, could harm those people.

Businesses prioritize profit, not "safety" or whatever else you're talking about. Profit always comes first.

Re: Tell HN: Automatic fraud detection is making my life hell

#206

Post by matheusmoreira »

cj wrote: post #137
dreamcompiler wrote: post #131

Wrong assumptions programmers make about fraud prevention: -- A mobile phone number uniquely identifies a single person. -- Every person has a mobile phone number and they only have one mobile phone number. -- If a person's mobile phone number is associated with VoIP or Google Voice, that indicates fraud. -- Every person always has their mobile phone handy and it is always able to receive calls and SMS messages under…

The problem with many of these examples is that 99% of the time, it is a sign of fraud, and 1% of the time it’s a false positive. > If a person's mobile phone number is associated with VoIP or Google Voice, that indicates fraud. I’ve been using this heuristic (along with VPN and IP geo lookup) when screening job candidates after a massive influx of developers outside the US applying for US-only remote roles. I discov…

> I wish there were a way to detect fraud while never having a false positive.

There is: networking. People you trust will tell you about candidates they know about.

> it’s also not realistic to optimize for the 1%

It's not about what's realistic, it's about what's right. Nobody should be falsely treated like a criminal. That 1% should carry enough legal liability to completely offset if not exceed the gains of preventing the 99%. If even one innocent person suffers, it's unacceptable.

Re: Tell HN: Automatic fraud detection is making my life hell

#207

Post by teddyh »

instagib wrote: post #67

Tried a premium credit card yet? One that costs $400/yr? I had a number to call and talk to someone with no wait if I had an issue. I dealt with some issues and I ultimately found out that they(the store) want to fingerprint you online. Things you do to avoid that make purchasing things online difficult. My ip address didn’t match the city I was in or receiving the item in = flag. Using a non-default dns service or v…

> My favorite joke scene about a cashless society was that some criminals couldn’t figure out who to rob because no one accepted cash anymore or held it in a store. Their only option was to rob another gang.

In a cashless society, the robbers who are left are the ones in the credit card money chain itself, where everybody is taking their share of the money flowing through it. I.e. “The best way to rob a bank is to own it.” The best kind of crimes are the legal ones.

Re: Tell HN: Automatic fraud detection is making my life hell

#208

Post by [deleted] »

oooyay wrote: post #200
cj wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with many of these examples is that 99% of the time, it is a sign of fraud, and 1% of the time it’s a false positive. > If a person's mobile phone number is associated with VoIP or Google Voice, that indicates fraud. I’ve been using this heuristic (along with VPN and IP geo lookup) when screening job candidates after a massive influx of developers outside the US applying for US-only remote roles. I discov…

You could use identity verification: https://plaid.com/products/identity-verification/ https://stripe.com/identity https://www.id.me/

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: Automatic fraud detection is making my life hell

#209

Post by zorgmonkey »

ikiris wrote: post #181
cj wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with many of these examples is that 99% of the time, it is a sign of fraud, and 1% of the time it’s a false positive. > If a person's mobile phone number is associated with VoIP or Google Voice, that indicates fraud. I’ve been using this heuristic (along with VPN and IP geo lookup) when screening job candidates after a massive influx of developers outside the US applying for US-only remote roles. I discov…

So you wont hire anyone who uses google fi? That's pretty lousy.

Google fi phone numbers are not VOIP they operate as a MVNO. Google voice numbers are VOIP.

Re: Tell HN: Automatic fraud detection is making my life hell

#210

Post by jrockway »

ahefner wrote: post #136
k8svet wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Schwab would fix their account security to allow plain TOTP instead of the scam that is Symantec VIP, I would have nothing but good... well, there was the two times, yes, two times in a month that I had to spend hours on the phone telling them to stop letting people randomly transfer securities into my account without my consent. They assured me that (1) it would be illegal for me to refuse the request to take bac…

Interesting. I was considering opening a second account specifically as a backup card and hedge against lockouts while travelling, and Schwab was high on my list, but it sounds like based on your experience that they are not fit for purpose.

I've used Schwab for 11 years and nobody has ever transferred securities into my account without my request. My biggest complaint is not supporting U2F/WebAuthn/Passkeys. My second biggest complaint is that their brokerage billpay was extremely broken and always locked me out of my account. That was always a "call support" type situation. But... they fixed that! They knew the system was bad, so they replaced it with one that's not bad.

In general, I think they have done a fine job. I have worked with them to transfer in old 401(k) accounts. I used a wire transfer out of Schwab to buy my apartment, which cleared in less than a minute. I have called support and they have been helpful and efficient. I really don't have any complaints.

Post reply on HN