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Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

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Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#201

Post by espadrine »

londons_explore wrote: post #85
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

You know what does make it make sense? If you can take natural gas out of the ground, split it into hydrogen and CO2 (releasing heat, which can be used to generate electricity), and inject the CO2 back underground to help release more oil and gas. At this point, you have hydrogen gas. Sure, you could burn that hydrogen to make more electricity, but it works out financially better if you can directly use it. The benef…

Isn’t that effectively what they call “blue hydrogen”[0]? All oil companies seem very slow in deploying that; there is no question that it is much more expensive than just releasing the CO₂ in the air.

[0]: https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/what-we-do/delivering-indus...

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#202

Post by Beached »

torginus wrote: post #178

People who are bullish for EVs I implore you to reconsider - current EVs containing a literal ton of batteries with limited lifespans belong in the green future, especially 80% of that doesn't get used for daily commute. It's obvious to me that considering the full-lifecycle costs (both manufacturing, usage and ownership), some sort of hybrid solution is the greenest, for the current crop of personal cars. But I beli…

in their current format no. but I think there is sufficient demand for long range personal vehicles, and as the world gets more electric, battery tech will get better. I can easily see a future where 1000 mile range on a single charge will be a norm. and I can easily see an America that requires that. range anxiety will decrease as charging gets faster and easier to access. but I just can't see an America household going 2x electric vehicles until 1000mile range with a charge up time of an hour or two is the norm.

I'm actually a huge fan of full ev hybrids that have on board gasoline generators

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#203

Post by keep_reading »

Clent wrote: post #11

I didn't realize this wasn't common knowledge. They oil companies own a lot of infrastructure for moving fuel around. They cannot use this infrastructure to move electricity but they can use the existing infrastructure to move hydrogen around.

Except the hydrogen will destroy the pipes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#204

Post by ge96 »

dieselgate wrote: post #78
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Am not well versed on these considerations but it appears one advantage of hydrogen is energy density compared to batteries. This may be less an issue for passenger vehicles but could be more relevant for air travel - as an example. No comments or opinions otherwise re: funding etc. Found the below article useful as a primer: https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/articles/fuel-cell-and...

I thought it was hard to contain since the particle is so small (leaks).

Liquid I suppose, temperature concern though.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#205

Post by theshrike79 »

bparsons wrote: post #62

There are good use cases for both technologies. For smaller, lighter vehicles in warmer climates, lithium batteries make a lot of sense. For heavy, long haul trucks that require minimal refueling, hydrogen fuel cell makes a lot of sense. You need to build out the infrastructure for both.

The difference here is that long haul infrastructure needs a H2 station every 200 maybe 300 kilometers.

For personal vehicles we need orders of magnitude more, because refuelling a H2 vehicle is even slower than liquid fuels.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#206

Post by jbm »

cpymchn wrote: post #98

Toyota was betting big on hydrogen. Were they being engineer-minded or where they being lobbied? I would like to think they were betting on Beta -- the superior technology -- in the Beta v VHS battle of our time. What am I missing here? Toyota's engineers have a great track record and the company isn't easily swayed by fads or Wall Street.

It is also possible that Toyota's engineers are not the level they used to be, much like Fujitsu's engineers (who caused one of the largest banking outages ever) or (other company of your choice that used to be a great engineering company but was hollowed out).

Considering the work load at Toyota (it is often referred to as a "black company" by people I know), the level of pressure that is put on their shita-uke companies, and changes in what people consider acceptable work environments, I imagine that they might not attract the same level of talent in 2023 that they did in 1983.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#207

Post by nithril »

ninkendo wrote: post #146
dangus wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“We don’t have the infrastructure” is a temporary problem. The same could have been said about gas stations and the electrical grid capacity needed for widespread air conditioning. Weight isn’t such a crazy thing either. The Tesla Model Y long range weighs 900 pounds more than a Honda CRV. It’s a lot, but the most popular car in America is the Ford F-150 which weighs about the same as a Model Y at the low end. The we…

> The weight efficiency can only improve from here I don’t think this is a given. I can imagine plenty of future battery tech that is much more physically dense, and also more energy-dense, but with an overall mass that’s heavier than what we have now. Consumers really want more range, and they don’t really care about their car’s weight so long as it isn’t prohibitive. (They will definitely care collectively as the r…

Is range really an issue if you can easily find charging spot and recharge in less than 15min?

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#208

Post by LtWorf »

linkjuice4all wrote: post #133
baq wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries are heavy, expensive and we don’t have infrastructure to charge them at the required scale. I don’t believe hydrogen is the answer but methane cells could be… liquid energy storage is just so much more practical compared to alternatives.

We (in the US) have very little hydrogen infrastructure but there's high voltage power lines basically everywhere - so it seems like hydrogen has the infrastructure and scaling issues. Batteries are indeed heavy - but so are portable hydrogen storage cell that don't easily explode or require liquid cooling. I agree with you that hydrogen isn't the answer but methane doesn't really seem to be either. Batteries and ele…

There isn't enough infrastructure to power all the eventual electric cars.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#209

Post by nrr »

bluGill wrote: post #192
xoa wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> very difficult to find a carbon free alternative that isn’t hydrogen. The basic mistake you're making here is thinking that "carbon free" is key. It is not, what matters is that a given energy source is carbon NEUTRAL . Anthropogenic global warming is driven primarily by net increase in atmospheric CO2 on our timescale. When CO2 in consumed from the atmosphere, and then shortly released again (textbook example bein…

The processes to make synthetic fuels are well known have proven to scale to a countries needs for energy. Germany did it in WWII, South Africa did it for a while too. The problem is it costs a lot of energy, and so it ends up 4-5 times more expensive than oil from a well.

I've seen some presentations over the last half a decade that are trying to couple this to fission as a form of cogeneration, and the carbon capture story for the resulting hydrocarbon synthfuels is pretty compelling.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#210

Post by elihu »

tw04 wrote: post #22
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

I don't blame you for being skeptical, but it isn't just the oil and gas industry. The Japanese government went all-in on hydrogen. https://thediplomat.com/2023/07/a-look-at-japans-latest-hydr...

I think that may be due to pressure from their automotive industry, who for whatever reason are very resistant to making battery electric cars.
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