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Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

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Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#201

Post by username332211 »

flangola7 wrote: post #146
bagels wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for collecting this. A couple years to draft & study some proposed regulation doesn't seem that heinous to me. It would make sense to not hastily publish a regulation that will last decades without really considering it and its effects well. They can be a source of lawsuits, and I would assume, you want it to be effective which can take some study.

No, the delay was artificial. Consider the effects? How about the possibility delaying i needlessly ncreases the number of humans dying?

The refusal of politicians to mandate motorcycle helmets for car drivers and pedestrians needlessly increases the number of humans dying as well.

Since the article is referring to "83 cases among countertop workers identified across the state [of California] since 2019", it's almost certain helmets would save more lives than anything you do about engineered stone. So what's the excuse there?

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#202

Post by haldujai »

retrac wrote: post #185
pupppet wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Canadian data is relatively poor quality Sure, no axe to grind here. Do tell us your impartial take.

Canadian here who believes our labour safety standards are generally better than the USA (based on anecdote and experience, not data). Canadian data is poor quality. On any issue you might care to pick, the topic is better studied in the United States. I run into this all the time. For example, we make allocation decisions at a charity I volunteer at with, about what health problems unemployed LGBT people tend to hav…

> it is an admission by the poster that their argument is based on weak evidence.

Which is exactly why I limited my reply to a discussion about the California study and healthcare systems rather than reiterating the claims in the 2022 article I referenced which states silicosis incidence is 3x higher in Canada, based on 20-30 year old data.

Although I live in the US now I’m a dual citizen and practiced medicine in both countries, the only axe I have to grind with Canada is the harsh winters which are incompatible with my fragile desert descent body.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#203

Post by paulddraper »

grecy wrote: post #172
paulddraper wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because we have a public health care system, funded by taxes, having a large number of young men out of the work force (not paying taxes) and using the health care system effectively means my taxes, everyone's taxes, are higher. That is true with or without publicly funded healthcare.

You could argue that more sick people is good for the US economy, and it helps rich people get richer.

Also, broken windows

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#204

Post by MutableLambda »

bagels wrote: post #127
mrob wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically, the problem can be solved with a supplied-air respirator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplied-air_respirator

Exhaust fans, supplied air respirator, water spray, using a waterjet instead of dust producing processes, enclosing the cutting blade in a vaccum. The bulk of the dust hanging in the air could be removed with adequate ventilation fans, which seems pretty basic.

Was searching for "enclosing the cutting blade in a vaccum", found this:

https://www.shophacks.com/tablesawdustcollection.html#/

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#205

Post by LordShredda »

galangalalgol wrote: post #46
mabbo wrote: post #39

What I find interesting when comparing the US the Canada on topics like these is that in Canada, there is self-interest in demanding workers be protected. Like beyond the fact that it's a good thing you do. Because we have a public health care system, funded by taxes, having a large number of young men out of the work force (not paying taxes) and using the health care system effectively means my taxes, everyone's tax…

Incidentally this is also why everyone working in a nation has to receive these benefits (and any others guaranteed to citizens), otherwise you get migrant workers who suck up this, quite literally in this case, but don't receive healthcare.

That could also be resolved by having tight border security and heavily penalizing anyone involved with their entry

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#206

Post by CrazyStat »

haldujai wrote: post #189
CrazyStat wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Small clarification - early detection is most often curative and cheap. > It actually provides a pretty good incentive for insurers to cover screening and early detection beyond what is mandated by law. The evidence in favor of mass screening programs in the hope of early detection is actually weak to non-existent [1]. > In total, 2 111 958 individuals enrolled in randomized clinical trials comparing screening with…

You’re looking at the wrong metric and misinterpreting the stats, not only is overall survival not a good metric for cancer screening none of the studies are sufficiently powered for OS. What you want to do is look at stage at presentation, treatment costs by stage, and screening costs. These were done for nearly every recommended screening program. The available evidence behind currently recommended screening progra…

I'm going to strongly push back on both (1) the notion that overall survival is the wrong metric and (2) that I'm misinterpreting something, given that I didn't really offer any interpretation at all. I just cited a paper.

> What you want to do is

No, what I want to do is assess whether broad screening programs actually make people live longer. Overall survival is the correct metric. Evidence in favor of the claim is lacking.

> none of the studies are sufficiently powered for OS.

"Sufficiently powered" is relative to what size of effect you want to detect--which you haven't specified, so I'm not sure how you can make the assertion that none of the studies are sufficiently powered.

> The available evidence behind currently recommended screening programs unequivocally shows improved cancer-specific survival and earlier stage at diagnosis.

These outcomes ignore negative effects of screening on people who don't have cancer, which is why I'm not interested in them. And yes, there are negative effects, and no, they are not negligible.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#207

Post by [deleted] »

whimsicalism wrote: post #28
thadk wrote: post #8

According to this podcast, Cass Sunstein, co-author of Nudge, used his economist-oriented federal government department to delay and block legislated regulation related to protection for silicosis during the Obama administration. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/if-books-could-kill/id...

Jeez - Sunstein has such great work in legal scholarship, but I guess power corrupts? Even more surprising to me was Sunstein and his wife Samantha Power attending Henry Kissinger's birthday party after Power previously published a book basically pinning 150,000 deaths in Cambodia directly on him. They knew this guy is basically a war criminal and still went to celebrate his birthday.

[deleted]

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#208

Post by haldujai »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #174
haldujai wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian data is relatively poor quality (mostly from the 90s) outside of Alberta (I expect QC and BC probably have the highest rates) but historically and estimates are that we have slightly higher incidence than the US. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/resp.14242 > There’s incentives for our government to protect workers from risks that will cost a fortune to fix. There are many examples where this…

> Note that public health system in Canada is not “free”. I'm enough of a pedant to annoy the fuck out of most anybody who knows me, but really? Look, there is no "free" health care anywhere, but it's a term that has (perhaps unfortunately) become widely used as a synonym for, depending on your sensibilities "no charge at the point of service" and/or "socialized health insurance and health care coverage". And Canada…

I think you may be “annoying the fuck” out of yourself here. Your reply is full of strawman arguments.

The comment I replied to asserts that the government incentive to reduce healthcare expenditures improves workplace safety, and consequently in the context of this article would have prevented silicosis/PMF in these patients.

I highly doubt most HN commenters are aware of whether undocumented migrants are covered in the Canadian system as they are in California, certainly the person I replied to was not, so I explain differences in coverage.

Consequently, the argument doesn’t hold water as the financial incentive for the government is stronger in California than in Canada as it relates to this study population.

> The metric "well, they don't provide it for undocumented persons" is a weird one, as is the use of California as a counter-example.

I'm not providing any counter examples, undocumented workers in California are the subjects in the article we are commenting on. Where in fact there happens to be socialized healthcare that you seem to think I'm arguing against.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#209

Post by michaelt »

Kirby64 wrote: post #42

This seems largely similar to worker protections for welding... the proper protection is essentially heavy shop ventilation and full respirators (which, good ones cost something like $1500). I suspect the problem is that welding related disease/problems show up quite quickly in most cases, and welding tends to be a higher paid industry. More room for margin on PPE and workers have higher demands.

Also might help that welders have a culture of PPE use; ain't nobody welding without a mask, gloves and sensible clothes.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#210

Post by bafe »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #200
bafe wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If function is your primary concern, then the only material to choose is the one professional kitchens use: stainless steel. It won't be as good looking depending on your tastes, but it will beat most stones on other properties

What is the cost though? Is rust a concern? And of course, looks are a concern, but I imagine quartz is relatively cheap because many, many people can afford it.

It's not very expensive, though I can't give you a price since I live in a rental apartment. As for rust: not a concern with stainless steel, our kitchen is almost 20 years old and the steel countertop and sink still look immaculate. A bit of steel wool or polishing paste are enough to make it look like new. If it wasn't for the look I bet most kitchens would come with stainless steel countertops
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