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When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

miles.land

201–210 of 350 posts

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with (a). Activities can be deemed ethical or unethical, and those norms are presumably reflected in our laws (as unauthorized hacking is). When they're not constrained by law (as certain publication and experimentation practices aren't), then they are constrained by social convention.

This is one of those cases, like "Zero Trust Networking" where you can't derive the meaning of a term axiomatically from the individual words. There is "responsible" and "irresponsible" disclosure, too, but "responsible disclosure" is also a specific, Orwellian basket of vendor-friendly policies that have little to do with ethics or responsibility.

"Responsible" and "irresponsible" are slippier words in the disclosure context. In the civil legal context, "responsibility" implies blameworthiness and liability arising out of a duty of care and a breach of the duty. But in the vulnerability disclosure context, since there's no duty prescribed by law, it has come to mean "social" vs. "antisocial" - getting along vs. being at odds.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#202
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't threatening to report someone to the authorities if you don't do something extortion?

As the linked article notes, it's explicitly against the California State Bar Code of Conduct to condition criminal proceedings on requiring a civil outcome, so while not technically illegal it's censurable - that's against the attorneys who threatened, not the clients they represent.

What I'm pondering is how what happened in TFA is different from a situation like:

1. I (legally) gather evidence of a neighbor committing a criminal action; e.g. take a picture of them selling illicit drugs.

2. I threaten to send the evidence to the authorities unless they pay me money.

That seems like blackmail to me, which is illegal under both state and federal law. The only difference I can think of is the consideration. If the consideration must be property for it to count as blackmail, then what about this situation:

1. I'm engaged in a civil dispute with my neighbor

2. I gather evidence of them committing a criminal action

3. I threaten to reveal the evidence unless they settle in my favor

Does that magically become legal because no money exchanges hands?

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#203
post #57

I'm not a lawyer, but I am professionally interested in this weird branch of the law, and it seems like EFF's staff attorney went a bit out on a limb here: * Fizz appears to be a client/server application (presumably a web app?) * The testing the researchers did was of software running on Fizz's servers * After identifying a vulnerability, the researchers created administrator accounts using the database activity the…

A friend points out that the limb EFF was out on was sturdy indeed, since DOJ has issued a policy statement saying they're not going after good-faith security research. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-announces-...

To me that reads less as "this is legal" and more as "this is illegal, but we (the executive branch of the government) will be nice and not go after you for it as long as we think you're a good guy". That's (arguably) better than nothing, but not exactly an ideal way to structure our justice system in my opinion.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is subtle: you can easily rack up 5-6 figure damage numbers from unauthorized security research, but Fizz was so small and new that I'm assuming nobody even contemplating retaining a forensics firm or truing things up with their insurers, who probably did not exist This seems like a problem with the existing law, if that's how it works. It puts the amount of "damages" in the hands of the "victim" who can choos…

A forensics investigation is usually required by insurers. It's not an arbitrary amount of money, it's just an amount you're not happy with. I understand why you feel that way, but it's not the way the law works.

> This seems like a problem with the existing law, if that's how it works.

> I understand why you feel that way, but it's not the way the law works.

OP was saying they don't think the law should work that way.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#205

I don't understand why in both contracts and legal communication (particularly threatening one), there is little to no consequence for the writing party to get things right. I've seen examples of an employee contract, with things like "if any piece of this contract is invalid it doesn't invalidate the rest of the contract". The employer is basically trying to enforce their rules (reasonable), but they have no negativ…

> "if any piece of this contract is invalid it doesn't invalidate the rest of the contract". Severability (the ability to "sever" part of a contract, leaving the remainder intact so long as it's not fundamentally a change to the contract's terms) comes from constitutional law and was intended to prevent wholesale overturning of previous precedent with each new case. It protects both parties from squirreling out of an…

Thanks for the explanation and the term "severability". I understand its point now and it makes sense to have it conceptually. I also didn't know about this part: > so long as it's not fundamentally a change to the contract's terms

However, taken down one notch from theoretical to more practical:

> It seems like you're arguing for some sort of punitive response to authoring a bad contract?

Not quite so bluntly, but yes. There's obviously a gray area here. So not for mistakes, subtle technicalities. But if one party is being intentionally or absurdly overreaching then yes, I believe there should be some proportional punishment. Particularly if the writing party's intent is to scare out of inaction more than a core belief that their wording is true.

The way I think of it is maybe in similar terms as disbarring or something like that. So not something that would be a day-to-day concern for honest people doing honest work, but some potential negative consequences if "you're taking it too far" (of course this last bit is completely handwavy).

Maybe such a mechanism exists that I'm not aware of.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can be convicted of breaking & entering through an open door. This definitely must vary by state. At least in Michigan that would just be trespassing. I know, because I had some very in-depth conversations with my lawyer about whether I had committed trespassing or B&E while exploring steam tunnels underneath a university. In my case, B&E couldn't apply because the door was unlocked. I also committed no other c…

You're totally right. The more accurate thing to say is "you could be convicted of residential burglary by walking through an open door if the prosecution could convince a jury you did so with the intent to commit a further crime".

That sounds right. I also appreciate how much you regularly add to discussion about the CFAA. I personally think it's a horrible law, but for the most part my understanding of it matches yours. Too many people mix up what "should be" vs. "what is".

In general, I've learned that if you ever wonder whether you might be breaking the CFAA, you are in violation of the CFAA. The only time this logic has ever failed that I've seen was HiQ vs. LinkedIn.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#207
Unless you're looking to earn a bounty, always disclose testing of this type anonymously. Clean device, clean wi-fi, new accounts. That way if they threaten you instead of thanking you you can just drop the exploit details publicly and wash your hands of it.

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend points out that the limb EFF was out on was sturdy indeed, since DOJ has issued a policy statement saying they're not going after good-faith security research. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-announces-...

To me that reads less as "this is legal" and more as "this is illegal, but we (the executive branch of the government) will be nice and not go after you for it as long as we think you're a good guy". That's (arguably) better than nothing, but not exactly an ideal way to structure our justice system in my opinion.

Yes, but I don't see a better solution. If we make "security research" legal, then any hacker can just say "oh I was just going to disclose my findings to them".

Re: When your classmates threaten you with felony charges

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then you’d concede that all that’s left is these Fizzbuzz people are liars and are bad people, and that their product is crap and should not be used, and you don’t need to have personally used the app nor met them personally to know any of that, since it’s all clear from their extremely obnoxious, self destructive conduct, and that that’s just an opinion and not a forecast on whether or not their useless investors…

Perhaps you missed this line from my original comment: I think the good guys prevailed here.

Yeah definitely. It’s just to say that the security researchers, these classmates, didn’t get lucky. Like if I were a Stanford student, and I heard about this shitty website, you know, if I were generalizing, I wouldn’t be wrong to guess it was run by obnoxious people and that the technology was a big lie.

And this website, this forum, it has a maligned love affair with the anti establishment characters, and it can’t really figure out this one because it’s dropouts v. hackers on the face of it. Most of the comments are litigating the law, by non lawyers and even when by lawyers, by people who absolutely could not predict the future of a legal decision. Why not just trust your gut? What I want to hear - what I want to be the #1 comment forever and for all time, which is just my opinion - is like, this research never needed to happen to know that Fizz or whatever is absolute trash. Do you see what I am saying?

There are a lot of 18-22 year olds pursuing entrepreneurship out of college aged vengeances. Y Combinator funds many such founders! And here we see the double edged sword: if you’re at Stanford touting yourself an entrepreneurial genius with your app about antagonizing your classmates, you had better actually bring the bacon to your supposed technology. Because you have more than your founding team’s worth of classmates who hate your guts, but can actually program.

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