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66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

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Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#201

If anyone is interested in an anecdote from a US American mid level dev living in Germany: I get 30 paid vacation days, 10 ish public holidays and my employer has to pay up to 6 weeks of sick leave a year (after that the public health insurance pays). I make around 75k€ with a 38 hour work week and my take home is roughly 3600€ net. My living expenses are less than 1k (mid sized city, no car, split rent, no kids) so…

Most likely the average dev in the US with your level of skill still makes 2-4x more than you without 2-4x the expenses.

Germany may be good to live and get by but not great to actually grow, financially. The whole system is still designed so that you depend on your 800€ gov check in your senior years.

Unless your parents already built some wealth it is barely possible to do so in your own lifetime in Germany.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While all the sentences you wrote are technically correct, your point is wrong. > you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. Health insurance for a couple (assuming you can get it and it covers anything that you…

> As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. In the US, most highly-skilled senior engineers will be multi-millionaires in their 40s which means that they can immediately retire and pay out of pocket for private health insurance covering the entire family without even making a dent…

> One has optionality and isn't chained like a slave to a grossly inefficient socialist state for the rest of one's life.

I don't think this conversation is worth continuing if you consider the US a bastion of freedom and the entirety of europe being entrapped to socialism.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel vacation days are just a basic requirement for happiness, whereas being rich maybe isnt Not only that, they are a requirement to make a good worker, that consequently make a good company. If you burn out your employees you fall behind schedule pretty quickly, so you have to rely on high turnover, which isn't a great option either. Take the example of Japan With a new law taking effect in April 2019 requiring…

>If you burn out your employees Burn out in Europe is still omnipresent and rising these days. This includes Germany, the 'chosen child' every proponent points at in these discussions. A few weeks off barely makes a dent in this and vacation days / time off hasn't been that noticeably different since the 70s/80s. >Japan That's just a law that pushes them to use it and keeps companies from going 'ah yeah difficult'. I…

> Burn out in Europe is still omnipresent and rising these days

From what I know, I work for a very large insurance company, it's mostly healthcare department due to consequences of COVID. Which shouldn't have happened, but it id.

> This include Germany, the 'chosen child' every proponent points at in these discussions

I'm not German and I do not particularly trust Germany, in fact I think it's one of the worst Western European country to live and work.

> A few weeks off barely makes a dent

But it makes a difference, that's the point.

I was simply pointing out that paid vacation it's a tool that's very useful for companies too, as for the 70s and th 80s, I was there, it was much worse than today.

My parents worked for the national healthcare in my Country, in 12 hours shift, 5 consecutive nights. Now it's 8 hour shifts for a maximum of two consecutive nights and then you get mandatory 36 hours off and morning shifts for a week.

Try working 6 days a week for a month and then 5 days a week for a month and see how much those "only few days" make a dent in your well being.

> Surprise, that's the same culture that exists in most EU-countries. Just less hardcore.

I work 220 days/year and I'm off 145 days, it's pretty standard here if you have a standard contract, so no freelance, no contractor, no off the books, etc. (230 work days might be closer to the average, I got +10 days of holidays for thermal treatment, to cure my chronic sinusitis, yes, we have that too and the State also pays for the treatments)

Which is not exactly a "few weeks".

Could be better, but could be US style or Japan style.

p.s. the law in japan just forces employers out of work at least for a few days to counter their extreme workaholic culture, which is nothing like what we have here in Europe.

From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...)

Minimum mandatory paid vacation days, normalized for a five-day workweek:

Japan: 6–10 days

My Country: 23–28 days

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#204
I'll take 5x the salary over a measly 20 extra vacation days any day, thanks. 70k a year for a highly skilled software dev is an absolute joke.

At least that allows me to generate wealth and retire 20-30 years sooner compared to your average German.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While all the sentences you wrote are technically correct, your point is wrong. > you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. Health insurance for a couple (assuming you can get it and it covers anything that you…

> As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. In the US, most highly-skilled senior engineers will be multi-millionaires in their 40s which means that they can immediately retire and pay out of pocket for private health insurance covering the entire family without even making a dent…

> In the US, most highly-skilled senior engineers will be multi-millionaires in their 40s

I don't think workers' rights movements and government policies that promote said rights are really centered around uplifting highly-skilled senior engineers. Certainly if you have in-demand talent, migrate to whatever country pays the most for it. You have that luxury

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#206
post #4

> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in…

Exactly. I live in a big European city. You basically don't need a car - pretty much anything within the city is reachable in about 30min, and public transit is comfy. Also, I have a public transit ticket that allows me to travel the entire country for a year, which only cost about 1000€. Yes, salaries are lower, but I also don't have to save anything to get my kids through university, or keep emergency funds for hea…

> Also, I can't just get fired without cause. And if I do get laid off, I have 3 months of grace period, plus potentially years of unemployment money.

Which causes companies to be very slow in hiring people, because if business turns they have less flexibility. European countries have some of the highest (youth) unemployment rates in the OECD:

* https://data.oecd.org/unemp/youth-unemployment-rate.htm

* https://www.oecd.org/employment/unemployment-rates-oecd-upda...

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#207
post #4

> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in…

Also, I'm amazed at the very idea of having a specific number of available sick days which I understand is the standard in the US. How on Earth is that something that is expected to be planned and accounted for by the employee? How can one "run out of" sick days? How do I see stories about US workers "donating" their unused sick leave days to a colleague with cancer or other long illness? I'm too lazy to look up the…

I've had three or four, it's honestly hard to count at this point, mental health crisises with associated sickleave of varying durations. Living in Europe that has been "fine". Judging by what I read I'd presumably be homeless and destitute in the USA.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#208
post #4

> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in…

Also, I'm amazed at the very idea of having a specific number of available sick days which I understand is the standard in the US. How on Earth is that something that is expected to be planned and accounted for by the employee? How can one "run out of" sick days? How do I see stories about US workers "donating" their unused sick leave days to a colleague with cancer or other long illness? I'm too lazy to look up the…

You don't run out of sick days, if you're sick you're sick.

You just run out of paid sick days. The employer will just drop you.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#209
post #97
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parents have to pay for university in Europe unless they are poor. And while there are no fees, the costs are typically between 30k and 100k per child. edit: In Germany. I‘m German and I have studied there. I should know. edit2: Someone said this comment could be interpreted as the cost per year which is not the case. This is the total cost.

There's no single policy that applies in all European countries. In a lot of countries there's no tuition fee (I live in one of them and went to university here), in some there's a token fee per year (a few hundred euros), and in some others students have to be fairly substantial tuition fees. Nothing close to the numbers you're quoting though. $10-20k per year is the highest I've ever heard of for public universitie…

in austria the tuition fee for foreigners was (or is if they haven't changed it) dependent on how much an austrian student would pay for tuition in that foreign country.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#210
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I count 10 European companies on this list, and 20 US. Maybe is not as bad as you think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_r...

I only count 6. Switzerland and the UK are not part of the EU. (The article is about the EU, not Europe)

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