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Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

reuters.com

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Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#201

Post by seanhunter »

legitster wrote: post #155
seanhunter wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean the SEC. That’s the agency here and yes, investor protection is part of the SEC’s mandate.

No, I meant the FTC which already settled with Celcius today: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/07/...

OK cool. My understanding is the FTC has a consumer protection mandate vs the SEC is about investor protection. So the FTC covers fair trade, deceptive and unfair business practises and that sort of thing vs the SEC will cover securities fraud, illegal marketing of securities to unqualified investors and whatnot.

Feels like they both are relevant here.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#202

Post by Animats »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #125
Animats wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's say that your analogy has zero actual bearing on what actually happened in this situation, and end the conversation there. Yes. Here's Celsius's web site archived in early 2022.[1] See what they claimed. They went all the way to being a fake bank. In their own words: "Meet Celsius: a community of over 1 million users that earn up to 17% yield on their crypto. Get paid new coins every week and borrow cash at 1…

Yes. What are you answering 'yes' to here?

Agreeing with "Let's say that your analogy has zero actual bearing on what actually happened in this situation, and end the conversation there."

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#203

Post by growse »

scottiebarnes wrote: post #145
growse wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The judiciary. See the Howey test.

I guess the judiciary system will eventually rule on what is legal / not legal via a legal contest, but courts are not actively informing and guiding American companies on what the rules are. Seems like there should be an agency that does? Furthermore, the SEC does seem to fulfill some of this role, ie. registering securities.

> but courts are not actively informing and guiding American companies on what the rules are.

Isn't this what lawyers are for?

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#204

Post by DennisP »

ethanbond wrote: post #190
null0pointer wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent of the comment you’re replying to literally cites a case where they were deemed to be wrong.

It looks a bit more nuanced than that. Torres is the judge in the XRP case. From the article: ——- Torres, who is based in New York, on Thursday said the company's $728.9 million of XRP sales to hedge funds and other sophisticated buyers amounted to unregistered sales of securities. But Torres ruled that Ripple's XRP sales on public cryptocurrency exchanges were not offers of securities under the law, because purchase…

From reading over the decision, the judge emphasizes that a security is an investment contract. The institutional investors and Ripple formed a contract, in which the investors were promised that Ripple would do various things in exchange for the investment.

On the secondary markets, people were just speculating on the token price going up or down. They weren't getting any promises from Ripple, or even necessarily giving money to Ripple, so there was no contract. If there's no contract, there's no security. Just speculating on the price of something doesn't turn that thing into a security.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#205

Post by zzzeek »

johndhi wrote: post #152
zzzeek wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

newspapers can't sell ads on a remote court document site which leads to a great business idea, run a mirror that republishes legal / government documents in a syndicated fashion with [your ad here]

I like that idea. A homepage that lists the top 20 stories of the day that are about a document that probably isn't actually linked to. Go to our site (www.readtheactualdocument.com) to see it -- and get served ads. Additive would be some highlighting and annotating of the document (as nytimes sometimes does) to point people to salient points.

if I get a commemorative lucite block with "Leader in Innovation" someday, I'll know it came from your startup as they went public, good luck!

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#206

Post by bottlepalm »

mandevil wrote: post #184
bottlepalm wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read my post, I said successful as a 'store of value' not 'electronic cash'. Bitcoin is more akin to gold - an inflation resistant store of value. There is a premium for transacting it which means you should convert it into a more inflation prone transactional currency if you want to spend it.

BTC seems to be very interest rate dependent- it goes up when rates go down and down when rates go up. That is pretty much the opposite of an "inflation resistant store of value". It's financial behavior over the last ten years isn't that of a "inflation resistant store of value" its that of a "speculative, very risky investment." Ideologically, to a certain type of person, it should be inflation resistant. The math…

What are you talking about, over the last 10 years Bitcoin has gone up in value substantially, while the Dollar has lost substantial value.

Interest rates affect all asset classes as obviously people are going to start moving money one way or another when the ROI for the dollar changes.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#207

Post by Forgeties79 »

bottlepalm wrote: post #139
alangibson wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> practical use cases This is satire right?

Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly, low transaction fee - pure P2P, and then being able to store it securely outside of a bank in your pocket. Have you dealt with wiring money before? How about holding large amounts of currency or gold outside of a bank? It sucks.

> Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly

But who needs this every day? Most people value security of their money over that kind of flexibility, especially when modern online banking gives you 95% of the same benefits.

Besides, one can tout all the “real” advantages they want, but perception is everything. If people think crypto is a quick way to get stolen from they simply won’t use it. No amount of convenience will get someone to go through the process of setting up a wallet, downloading the ledger, setting up an account on an exchange (which requires them to link a bank account!), and convert their money to crypto. All so they can maybe get some perks a small % care about, let alone need.

I can move $10,000 or less daily, all near-instantly from my computer with my bank. I can’t imagine a world where I need more than that on the regular. That’s something many go years without doing.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#208

Post by rightbyte »

pessimizer wrote: post #183
saurik wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which point of the Howey Test do you feel is not satisfied by Pokémon cards? (If your answer has anything to do with the existence of the game, I am curious what you think of baseball cards.) You state that they don't satisfy the test with quite some certainty but left the reasoning to the reader; but, it would seem, to me, like Pokémon cards are no different from many of these cryptocurrencies the SEC is interested…

I deeply disapprove of Magic and honestly think that it shouldn't be allowed to be marketed to children if cigarettes aren't allowed to be marketed towards children. But an enormous number of people actually play the (shockingly boring) game. And while there's little doubt that most of the cards being purchased now are going to end up worthless, the "long term" in Magic has already been reached because it's been arou…

How can MtG be even remotely comparable to cigarettes? I would buy a comparison to lotteries or "loot boxes" due to boosters ...

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#209

Post by bottlepalm »

pessimizer wrote: post #199
bottlepalm wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly, low transaction fee - pure P2P, and then being able to store it securely outside of a bank in your pocket. Have you dealt with wiring money before? How about holding large amounts of currency or gold outside of a bank? It sucks.

The problem is that the use case is generally criminal, which crypto people elide by complaining about whichever country's government is currently being attacked in the media. They do this in order to make dodging taxes and government oversight sound heroic. It's also a way to transform a conversation about fraud and free-riding into easy nationalist cheerleading. What people want is anonymity, cheap/free checking, a…

I must be a criminal then lol. Banks are a pain in the ass to deal with. Bitcoin is a very practical and easy way to move large amounts of money around. That's why a lot of people use it. We pay our taxes when transacting it just the same. If you don't use Bitcoin, great, but don't make assumptions about those of us who do.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#210

Post by scottiebarnes »

growse wrote: post #203
scottiebarnes wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the judiciary system will eventually rule on what is legal / not legal via a legal contest, but courts are not actively informing and guiding American companies on what the rules are. Seems like there should be an agency that does? Furthermore, the SEC does seem to fulfill some of this role, ie. registering securities.

> but courts are not actively informing and guiding American companies on what the rules are. Isn't this what lawyers are for?

Guess that's how the world works then; do something until the government sues you, go to court and set precedent. Seems a bit inefficient. Or maybe its the most efficient path after all.
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