Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Proof you can do hard things

blog.nateliason.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 330 posts

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#201

Post by constantcrying »

butterNaN wrote: post #191
constantcrying wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I specifically dislike is the question "what am I ever going to use this for" or versions of it. Which I only ever hear about mathematics, but which can be asked about every other subject as well. Yes, math is hard and definitely not for everyone, which I think is perfectly fine. But arguing that something has no use to you, because the first time in your life you actually have to engage in complex logical think…

I feel your complaint is valid, but I your ire should be directed towards people who are supposed to answer this question, not the people who are asking it. My guess is that answering "what am I ever going to use this for" is easier for other subjects, sometimes almost intuitive. For Maths, it needs to be defined as soon as it starts getting abstract. "what am I ever going to use this for" is a perfectly valid questi…

>My guess is that answering "what am I ever going to use this for" is easier for other subjects, sometimes almost intuitive.

How so? What am I ever going to use my skills in analysing 20th century literature for. What am I ever going to use my knowledge about Roman history for? What am I ever going to use my knowledge about the structure of our government for? Certainly no employeer of mine ever cared, my University didn't care, nobody seems to have ever cared, except my teachers.

The question is bad because:

- People ask it, but only of mathematics

- People answer it, as if mathematics alone has to face that challenge

If school is about job training the answer is simply "because it contains the broadest possible techniques to understand the world and is vital in basically any data-based scientific pursuit and a basic understanding is needed for any trade which uses measurements". Somehow I think ancient history does not have such an answer...

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#202

Post by lovelyviking »

hardware2win wrote: post #174
toyg wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what I'm hearing is that math is only good when there is no GPS / no phone. Let's be honest: advanced math is useful in programming contexts. Everywhere else, in 2023 you're using computer programs that will do the hard math for you.

You didnt understand my message. Math is not about calculators or computers. It is about modeling (e.g real world) It is useful whenever non-standard, already modeled in your calculator problem apprears.

>You didnt understand my message.

Perhaps he didn’t and isn’t it a part of the problem to apply math?

>Then you basically not only get better tools to operate (model) in real world, day2day life, but also it opens you doors to highly paid careers.

can you elaborate on how “it opens you doors to highly paid careers”?

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#203

Post by mianos »

It's not the point, but a lot of people are going on and on about the lack of need for calculus as a programmer. If you even touch how any machine learning works it's all basic calculus and intermediate linear algebra under the hood.

Sure most people can get a long way without understanding anything under the hood but I think I am better developer knowing assembly and architecture. The same for ML, you can get by most of the time. You can also make a whole career not doing hard things. That's not for everyone.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#204

Post by DC-3 »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #186
constantcrying wrote: post #179

I really despise all the "why you should care about math" takes. The question is never asked about any other school subject and only mathematics has to justify itself that way. I had to learn about categories of plants and animals, interpret 20th century literature, learn about events from a thousand years ago, I did presentations on the demographics of European countries, how certain chemicals react and much, much m…

That's because math is harder for most people. There is no difference between learning a name in history or in biology, or some workflow. But math reasoning really filters out people in a way nothing else does. All other topics just require memory and basic reasoning. Even physics mostly is hard because of math. And philosophy, mostly because of jargon and references. Otherwise, if you break it down, it's not that co…

> math reasoning really filter out people in a way nothing else does.

I have known many people, to whom mathematical reasoning comes as easily and naturally as flight does to a swallow, be defeated by literature. Every technical university in the world is brimming with bright young people who could effortlessly describe a Jacobian but would rather gnaw off their own hand than produce a response to a story or sonnet.

> And philosophy, mostly because of jargon and reference. Otherwise, if you break it down, it's not that complicated.

Quite the claim.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#205

Post by jppbkm »

raincole wrote: post #146
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #18

I hate the framing of problems or domains as hard, since it kept me from pursuing them further for many years. And the years later when I tried my hand at those problems, I found that it wasn't nearly as hard as it was being made out to be. Historically many problems have also been hard until people figure them out, and then they stop being considered hard problems. In recent years this has been mostly true of AI-rel…

> People will talk about how they don't have full mastery over the language, but you don't need anything close to that in order to be effective. My daily work is 80% C# and 20% Python (to make internal Blender tools for our artists). And I'm really bad at Python. I don't know any of itertools. I don't know zip() besides its name. I don't even use lambda. The result? My bad code can be easily understood by some of mor…

Aww, zip is great!

  for x,y in zip(['a', 'b', 'c'], ['1', '2', '3']):

     print(x + y)

  >>'a1'

  >>'b2'

  >>'c3'
Usually you just use it to group two items you're iterating through that are the same length. You CAN do items of different lengths but then when one gets used up the rest of the other get tossed IIRC. Can use it in list comprehensions as well of course.

Zip was simpler than I thought when I first saw it.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#206

Post by DarkNova6 »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #186
constantcrying wrote: post #179

I really despise all the "why you should care about math" takes. The question is never asked about any other school subject and only mathematics has to justify itself that way. I had to learn about categories of plants and animals, interpret 20th century literature, learn about events from a thousand years ago, I did presentations on the demographics of European countries, how certain chemicals react and much, much m…

That's because math is harder for most people. There is no difference between learning a name in history or in biology, or some workflow. But math reasoning really filters out people in a way nothing else does. All other topics just require memory and basic reasoning. Even physics mostly is hard because of math. And philosophy, mostly because of jargon and references. Otherwise, if you break it down, it's not that co…

> math reasoning really filter out people in a way nothing else does.

Disagree. I say: Bad math teachers really filter out people in a way nothing else does.

"Here is a list of rules which can be used in specific circumstances. I am not going to tell you why you would need them and the exam will feature several corner cases. Also, I will not provide any examples or detailed explanations because what would other people think of me, then?"

This is over the top, but boils down my experience starting from highschool. I was in love with math when I was in primary and middle school. I really did.

But Highschool and university killed every last bit of enjoyment I used to have.

Okay, I did really like the first 2 semesters of math. I found an amazing online class which covered the same topics we did. Finally I understood and doing the exercises with such ease felt like cheating.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#207

Post by BiteCode_dev »

DC-3 wrote: post #204
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because math is harder for most people. There is no difference between learning a name in history or in biology, or some workflow. But math reasoning really filters out people in a way nothing else does. All other topics just require memory and basic reasoning. Even physics mostly is hard because of math. And philosophy, mostly because of jargon and references. Otherwise, if you break it down, it's not that co…

> math reasoning really filter out people in a way nothing else does. I have known many people, to whom mathematical reasoning comes as easily and naturally as flight does to a swallow, be defeated by literature. Every technical university in the world is brimming with bright young people who could effortlessly describe a Jacobian but would rather gnaw off their own hand than produce a response to a story or sonnet.…

They are not defeated by literature, they are just not that interested in it, and therefore never practiced, and dislike working on it.

It's not a matter of the field being too difficult. It's a matter of personality.

> Quite the claim.

Yes. I've discussed this claim with people defending the opposite idea, and I've yet to find anybody making a good demonstration that philosophy is hard in itself.

They point that there is a lot to know. So reference and memory. Like most expertise in the world.

That texts are hard to read. So style, vocabulary. Well, not different than programming or the law on that point. They are easier than higher level math.

They say few people get novel ideas. Yes, creativity is rare, yet it's not particularly linked to the field. You need creativity to find new theorems too.

So they try to bring complicated topics again and again. Once we are done mapping the references, the vocabulary and cleaned out the awful style a lot of writers use to obfuscate their reasoning, the ideas behind are quite straightforward to grasp.

I've stopped doing it now, it takes a very long time, and it's always disappointing. It feels like debugging a program, only to realize it could have been 10 times shorter and easier to read.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#209

Post by roel_v »

constantcrying wrote: post #179

I really despise all the "why you should care about math" takes. The question is never asked about any other school subject and only mathematics has to justify itself that way. I had to learn about categories of plants and animals, interpret 20th century literature, learn about events from a thousand years ago, I did presentations on the demographics of European countries, how certain chemicals react and much, much m…

"The question is never asked about any other school subject"

Huh? People around me asked that all the time in high school & beyond.

Re: Proof you can do hard things

#210

Post by DC-3 »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #207
DC-3 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> math reasoning really filter out people in a way nothing else does. I have known many people, to whom mathematical reasoning comes as easily and naturally as flight does to a swallow, be defeated by literature. Every technical university in the world is brimming with bright young people who could effortlessly describe a Jacobian but would rather gnaw off their own hand than produce a response to a story or sonnet.…

They are not defeated by literature, they are just not that interested in it, and therefore never practiced, and dislike working on it. It's not a matter of the field being too difficult. It's a matter of personality. > Quite the claim. Yes. I've discussed this claim with people defending the opposite idea, and I've yet to find anybody making a good demonstration that philosophy is hard in itself. They point that the…

As I read it, your argument boils down to:

> When a student who likes literature does poorly in mathematics, it is because he is not clever enough.

> When a student who likes mathematics does poorly in literature, it is because it is boring.

If you truly believe this I have nothing more to say to you.

I will not respond to your comments on philosophy, though I think they are wrongheaded, because I think your position to discuss such things is made untenable by the obvious contempt in which you hold the humanities.

Post reply on HN