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Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

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Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#201

Post by gameman144 »

jedberg wrote: post #145
treeman79 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proper solution is government to stop guaranteeing the loans and to allow people to put them in bankruptcy. Prices will collapse to what people are willing to pay in real time, or save up for.

That's how things used to be. It means that only rich people can go to college, because they are the only ones who can afford it. Prices can only come down so far. The college still has to pay professors and maintain facilities. There needs to be a middle ground where we support poor but promising students in a way that doesn't inflate prices. I don't know what that solution is.

> It means that only rich people can go to college, because they are the only ones who can afford it.

I hear this a lot, but I don't understand the argument to be honest. If someone is poor today, then they can take an exorbitant amount of debt that they can't discharge in order to attend university.

In a world where loans are dischargeable in bankruptcy and the federal government limits subsidizes loans, we'd expect prices to fall somewhat and rates to rise somewhat. It seems like we would still expect the poor student to be able to take on a large amount of debt to attend university, though, no?

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#202

Post by ochoseis »

Anecdata, but graduated in ‘08 and it looks like the chart roughly matches the doubling in tuition in the university I attended since then.

I used loans to pay for my education, and one effect that has from an individual level is that it really changes your appetite for risk during the payoff. From a macro level it’s probably nice to have indebted young people motivated to work; however, I’m sure it produces a lot fewer entrepreneurs willing to gamble on a great idea.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#203

Post by abeppu »

koube wrote: post #19
toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

The only service category that has outpaced higher education is hospital services. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-or-century/

I generally see charts like this in relation to Baumol's cost disease, I'm surprised the linked article never mentions Baumol, but goes on to talk about government regulation and foreign competition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect (See also section on education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect#Education ) Basically as scalable goods and services get cheaper, non-scalable goods and services bec…

Thanks for pointing this out -- I've heard some people back this claim, but I still find it confusing.

In a graph in that wikipedia article, we see that from 1998-2018, average hourly earnings increased by less than 100%, but tuition increased by more than 150%. If wages for university staff (who aren't becoming more productive) are rising to match wages for those who _are_ becoming more productive, why should tuition costs rise significantly faster than the rise in other wages?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect#/media/File:Pric...

Further, one statement in the education section sounds right to me:

> The economists Gary Rhoades and Joanna Frye went further in a 2015 study and argued that the Baumol effect could not explain rising tuition costs at all, as "relative academic labor costs have gone down as tuition has gone up".

And we know there's a trend towards shifting teaching responsibilities from tenure-track faculty to cheaper adjuncts. And from anecdata, I get the impression that in the humanities especially, salaries _are_ quite low and raises are currently below inflation.

And my understanding is also that the trend at many schools is towards larger classes e.g. when UC Berkeley increased the freshman class size by a third, there was not an across-the-board increase for departments to hire a proportional increase in faculty and staff, nor did existing faculty and staff get a raise ... so the same people are asked to just teach larger classes (does that count as a productivity increase?), and students just get less interaction with their professors.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#204

Post by zeroonetwothree »

adventured wrote: post #159
taeric wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse than just "backed by the federal government," the loans are basically protected by the government. Being one of the small list of things you can't bankrupt out of, the risk in giving out the loans has been fully pulled from the lenders. It is frustrating to hear the discourse over the inappropriate students that are taking on too much debt, all the while ignoring the lenders that are taking on too much risk. At…

> all the while ignoring the lenders that are taking on too much risk. At least, they would be taking on too much risk, if they hadn't captured the market so effectively The lenders? Risk? 93% of all student loan debt is owned by the US Government. What risk? How is it everybody pretends it's the Big Evil Bankers making all the money on this racket? It's equivalent to the false narrative about private prisons driving…

People hate Comcast for raising their rate $10/month but when the government prints trillions causing you to lose 20% of your income and assets to inflation it’s not a big deal.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#205

Post by RyanAdamas »

Accreditation Boards

Textbook Publishers

University Tuition

It's a triangle scheme where one feeds the other and it's all fueled by non-dischargeable government loans.

Student Loans are the hill to die on. As someone who isn't eligible for Military Service, I don't get supplemental housing, free healthcare, free college education, hiring preferences, small business loan preferences, nor a lifetime of "OH THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!!", and that's if you aren't one of MILLIONS of Veterans gaming the VA disability system.

The military decided asthmatics and ADHD kids will forever be second class citizens because we can't join the drunken sexfest that is modern military service; which has essentially become a daycare for 18-24 year-olds.

It's absolutely unconstitutional for the military to relegate individuals to specific spectrums of society given how they were born. I'm not gay so I guess that doesn't matter. But, who cares? If the Constitution mattered we wouldn't be where we are today.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#206

Post by tiedieconderoga »

za3faran wrote: post #149
eschulz wrote: post #10

Makes sense when you have student loans backed by the federal government. If an 18 year old with no money and no credit history gets accepted into a qualifying university, she will be able to receive a loan since the bank knows that the government will protect their investment if she fails to pay them back. So now young people have this easy access to credit, and universities can greatly increase tuition and fees wit…

I hope to see the day where interest bearing loans are recognized by the rest of the world as the evil they are. Muslims and Jews know this fact quite well.

Abrahamic religions in general - Jesus was also not a fan.

>Jesus went into the temple courtyard and threw out everyone who was buying and selling there. He overturned the moneychangers’ tables and the chairs of those who sold pigeons. He told them, “Scripture says, ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you’re turning it into a gathering place for thieves!”

- Matthew 21:12-13

>If you lend money to my people—to any poor person among you—never act like a moneylender. Charge no interest.

- Exodus 22:25

KJV used the word "usurer", but it's the same idea.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#208

Post by enono »

RyanAdamas wrote: post #205

Accreditation Boards Textbook Publishers University Tuition It's a triangle scheme where one feeds the other and it's all fueled by non-dischargeable government loans. Student Loans are the hill to die on. As someone who isn't eligible for Military Service, I don't get supplemental housing, free healthcare, free college education, hiring preferences, small business loan preferences, nor a lifetime of "OH THANK YOU FO…

sir this is a wendys

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#209

Post by Rebelgecko »

londons_explore wrote: post #54

I'd like to see a new funding model for universities. I'd like to see universities be able to register for a share of tax revenue from their students post-graduation. For example "This course costs 5% extra income tax for 20 years". Then, you pay nothing for the course, but after you graduate you pay a 5% higher tax rate, and that extra money goes to the university. The IRS would administer the scheme since they alre…

Fun fact, some schools do the opposite of this. Slightly oversimplifying, but the schools say "we'll raise your tuition by $x and give you ~$x in grants after you graduate if your income is below $y". It's most common for people in law school that know they'll be working for the government (eg prosecutor/public defender), so their income is mostly predetermined and they'll be eligible for loan forgiveness regardless. Win/win for the colleges and the students.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#210

Post by lordnacho »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #135
GartzenDeHaes wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lenders that are taking on too much risk The lenders are taking no risks since these loans cannot be discharged through bankruptcy. There are also very large late fees and penalties that can triple (or more) the amount owed.

Now I read that Wall Street is creating CDO's based on these loans, like they (continue to) do on mortgages. Some people die "early" without paying back these loans, and sometimes, they will owe more than they took out. Given the mounting problems with the numbers here, it seems a whole generation of people in the middle of this bubble are going to go to the grave while still owing on these loans. What happens to the…

Well the CDOs are probably tranched, so there will be some portions that are safe. But in general, you'd think the student loans would only be in trouble if there's a large increase in the unemployment rate. You'd get a meltdown if the government were to announce a change in the laws.
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