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Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

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Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#201

Post by shusson »

icedchai wrote: post #197
shusson wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> software engineers are the worst at planning their own work. The vast majority will just go off and do wtf ever they want There are successful companies that have senior engineers managing/leading teams and still coding. This idea that software engineers need managers and that somehow being a software engineer means only coding (IC) is a pattern that early American tech companies went with. Originally I imagine it…

In the mid-2000's, I worked at a company where the engineering managers were actual engineers that coded. They often did double duty as PMs. You don't see that often today.

Yeah the progression feels like a textbook example of the iron law of bureaucracy [1]

[1]https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#202

Post by ma34esense »

eysquared wrote: post #32

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

[flagged]

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#204

Post by ntr-- »

Spivak wrote: post #59
eysquared wrote: post #32

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

Seconded and thirded. Nothing is more soul draining then doing nothing for 8 hours a day, the idea that devs are lazy and don't want to code is like the antithesis of our whole profession. Most of us do it in our free time. When you actually have a real actionable thing to work on that gives the line workers meaningful "wins" the management pyramid flips and they all become "servant managers" trying to direct the exc…

> Most of us do it in our free time.

I used to believe this but after my most recent position I no longer do. A lot of the developers there didn't code outside of work hours, or if they did it was just using the same technologies as the day to day.

When asked what tools we could use to filter for higher quality candidates in open roles I responded:

> Ask them to show you a personal project they're proud of, that will tell if they have any passion for the job.

Maybe it was just the company not being very attractive to talented coders, but after some time of candidates having nothing to show the company gave up and outsourced. There are simply a lot of uninspired developers who are just in it for the money now.

Maybe some kind of confirmation bias / no true scotsman argument, but if I got that question during an interview my response would be something like

> Which one would you like to hear about first?

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#205

Post by somsak2 »

intelVISA wrote: post #182
Gorbzel wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it leaves out quite a bit of agency from the employee Good catch. Of course it does, as the easiest and most lazy trend in software engineering thinkpieces is to blame middle management. Keep in mind that 90% of the article (itself “fake work” as another commenter pointed out) has nothing to do with managers. The only substantiated mention there is from a gaggle of “strategic” academics at overpriced universities,…

You don't pay someone $200k to churn out CRUD - there's plenty of lowcode solutions like Flask for that! I somewhat agree, though, the core issue with "paying for business value" is how difficult it is to really define that across an org.

>You don't pay someone $200k to churn out CRUD

I've got some bad news for you about what 90% of FAANG work is like

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#206

Post by fmc30 »

policepost wrote: post #108
antipaul wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Management" definitely seems easier, than having to do technical work, without proper accountability. But it seems it's hard to hold management accountable. For an IC such as an engineer, if you don't deliver code for the deadline or check-in, it's clear you haven't delivered. But how do you judge the performance of managers? Oh, right, by the size of the "empire"...

As a former engineer and now manager, it's not easier. It's different. Like, yes I write much less code, but I also have to show much more empathy and be able to communicate with different people differently. Helping every engineer on the team advance their careers is tough, because everyone heard feedback differently. Combine that with the one on ones where someone tells you about how shitty their life has been rece…

Thanks for your comment. I'm pretty sick of the low effort takes on this site (read: internet in general). Every role is different. Each has its own challenges and anybody can be good or bad in a given role. Too many people trying to blame upper management, blame L1 managers, blame developers, without understanding, or even attempting to understand, the challenges they face. It doesn't just work like that. I'm 9 years into my career and became a manager 2.5 years ago. I agree entirely with you, it's just different, not better or worse. As a manager you are constantly dealing with a number of situations more varied than what you face weekly as a developer. The challenges are different. You can work harder, or work less hard, smarter or dumber...it's all up to the person and how their organization operates.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#207

Post by societyis »

ryoshu wrote: post #27
wahnfrieden wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers usually fire team members rather than take the fall for the team.

Bad managers do that. Good managers accept accountability for the failures of their teams. Delegation makes a leader more accountable, not less.

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Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#208

Post by societyis »

11101010001100 wrote: post #26
JamesHinnek wrote: post #16

Just a reminder that lazy managers are the source of burnout for those who are under them. As a manager I can say, there is no easier job than just forwarding requests from directors directly to developers, not planning, and promising crazy deadlines to avoid conflict with higher management. If someone is being paid more, this person has to work more, I have seen so many people becoming managers just to actually avoi…

Work more means what? It's about efficiency in terms of performance metrics.

[dead]

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#209

Post by yunohn »

cratermoon wrote: post #138
manicennui wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Senior engineers are often good at turning boring problems into more interesting problems (to them) by doing unnecessary rewrites or introducing new technology.

These days the title "senior engineer" is handed out like candy. Anyone with three years experience is now "Senior" in title. In the US, doctors fresh out of med school have a minimum of three years ahead before they can even begin to practice independently. For programming, and pretty much any other profession, senior doesn't really begin until nearing 10 years of work experience. At that point, that itch to turn bo…

“No True Senior SWE” paradox?

10yrs is a very long time in Computer Science. All the engineers I’ve worked with from earlier eras are very influenced by what they started their career with. Heck I’m the same way as I approach my decade threshold.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#210

Post by kthejoker2 »

yunohn wrote: post #209
cratermoon wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days the title "senior engineer" is handed out like candy. Anyone with three years experience is now "Senior" in title. In the US, doctors fresh out of med school have a minimum of three years ahead before they can even begin to practice independently. For programming, and pretty much any other profession, senior doesn't really begin until nearing 10 years of work experience. At that point, that itch to turn bo…

“No True Senior SWE” paradox? 10yrs is a very long time in Computer Science. All the engineers I’ve worked with from earlier eras are very influenced by what they started their career with. Heck I’m the same way as I approach my decade threshold.

Software engineering suffers from a lot of "1 year of experience repeated 10 times" folks.

Doctors and most professional engineers undergo heavy rotations within their overall practice, and do lots of CE.

I wish every SWE did the same.

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