How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries • Hacker News Board

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#201

Post by chefandy » Wed, Jul 05, 2023, 2:38 AM UTC

calvinmorrison wrote: post #179

chefandy wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not 99%, and perhaps not new sites, but I'll bet those three environments combined run more than 80% of sites right now.

99% of code is boring, closed source, and provides business value. Most people do not work at FAANG, and do not want to. People mostly work at SMBs doing things that are not super exciting, and that's OK.

Yep. In practice, people wanting to make something cool when they'd be way better off making something boring can be a real multi-pronged liability.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#202

Post by robswc » Wed, Jul 05, 2023, 2:45 AM UTC

Uehreka wrote: post #166

I’m just really tired of this debate about “frameworks” and “complexity”. If your client asks you for a custom CMS with a multi-stage publishing workflow with i18n and regulation-compliant a11y, you’ll need high-powered tools to build it in the time clients expect. Lots of clients in enterprise are like this, which is why the demand for this stuff is so high. If you’re working in B2C this may be surprising, but this…

Agreed, and this is someone who isn't a fan of the complexities frameworks introduce.

Not OP but I'm not sure why people think you can't just use different tools for different jobs.

There's times where a framework isn't needed but in my experience its rare, unless you're doing something _very_ simple that won't be changing often.

I can't imagine how a "simple tools" site would work with a team and client... and that's not a diss on anything its just that I really don't see how.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#203

Post by fluidcruft » Wed, Jul 05, 2023, 2:49 AM UTC

gwern wrote: post #10

This seems to fall into the 'simplistic, not simple' school of thought. You can have a relatively simple website if it doesn't do anything and if it cuts corners. Take your dark mode, which is just about the only nontrivial feature I see on this page. (One could also criticize the low contrast of the appearance and other problems, but that's less relevant to the simplicity thesis you're claiming.) First, your dark mo…

I don't notice any "flash of white" (Firefox, Chrome, Safari on Mac; Firefox, Chrome on Android). Not on initial page load, refresh nor toggling between Dark and Light. It seems to just work.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#204

Post by hw » Wed, Jul 05, 2023, 2:50 AM UTC

nickelpro wrote: post #196

gwern wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nuts-and-bolts implementation of inlined-CSS to avoid flash-of-white is separate from the UX toggle question, which is why I listed them as separate criticisms. The former is just wrong of OP: no user wants the FOUC flash-of-white, end of story; similarly for some of the other solutions proposed here (block the entire page, really? talk about burning down the village to save it). The latter has more leeway for de…

> block the entire page, really? talk about burning down the village to save it I'm curious for what the other approach is. Users find it annoying to refresh the page and have their dark-mode setting change, or have their dark-mode setting change while navigating the site. So I have to block paint until I can query local storage in order to avoid flashing, what's the alternative? Below someone suggested using cookies…

As long as you have a good reason for your decision. Some things you just have to make tradeoffs and can’t please everyone. Enter key to submit or enter key for newline in a chat context? You’ll go crazy trying to solve for all - sometimes it is just not possible

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#205

Post by dv35z » Wed, Jul 05, 2023, 2:59 AM UTC

INTPenis wrote: post #12

For information, static sites are unchallenged imho. Even for a certain level of collaboration, I think one could get away with using static sites. I haven't tried this in practice but imagine having a git-based CI/CD flow for a static site, where non-technical end users could use the web-based Markdown editors of github.com or gitlab.com to make small changes, save and push via a pull request. Each merge is of cours…

What are your thoughts on (1) Obsidian vault (folder of markdown files), (2) stored on a shared Google Drive folder (several team members can edit files using Obsidian) (3) Less technical users could publish the site by using GitHub Desktop app. When they commit changes (4) git-based CI/CD uses MkDocs-Material to publish the site somewhere...

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#206

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 05, 2023, 3:06 AM UTC

fluidcruft wrote: post #203

gwern wrote: post #10

This seems to fall into the 'simplistic, not simple' school of thought. You can have a relatively simple website if it doesn't do anything and if it cuts corners. Take your dark mode, which is just about the only nontrivial feature I see on this page. (One could also criticize the low contrast of the appearance and other problems, but that's less relevant to the simplicity thesis you're claiming.) First, your dark mo…

I don't notice any "flash of white" (Firefox, Chrome, Safari on Mac; Firefox, Chrome on Android). Not on initial page load, refresh nor toggling between Dark and Light. It seems to just work.

[deleted]

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#207

Post by shthed » Wed, Jul 05, 2023, 3:08 AM UTC

fluidcruft wrote: post #203

gwern wrote: post #10

This seems to fall into the 'simplistic, not simple' school of thought. You can have a relatively simple website if it doesn't do anything and if it cuts corners. Take your dark mode, which is just about the only nontrivial feature I see on this page. (One could also criticize the low contrast of the appearance and other problems, but that's less relevant to the simplicity thesis you're claiming.) First, your dark mo…

I don't notice any "flash of white" (Firefox, Chrome, Safari on Mac; Firefox, Chrome on Android). Not on initial page load, refresh nor toggling between Dark and Light. It seems to just work.

the pages flashes light mode when refreshing the page with dark mode enabled, chrome on windows.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#208

Post by metmac » Wed, Jul 05, 2023, 3:09 AM UTC

This resonates a lot. I really wanted to get on the Hugo train but I just couldn’t. I’ll probably give it another go someday.

For now it’s straight HTML,JS, and tailwinds for CSS.

Then I let Parcel do all the minifaction magic when shipping to GitHub pages.[1] Which is the only “magic” in this equation. I could pull it out if it ever broke.

[1] https://metmac.dev

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#209

Post by fluidcruft » Wed, Jul 05, 2023, 3:25 AM UTC

shthed wrote: post #207

fluidcruft wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't notice any "flash of white" (Firefox, Chrome, Safari on Mac; Firefox, Chrome on Android). Not on initial page load, refresh nor toggling between Dark and Light. It seems to just work.

the pages flashes light mode when refreshing the page with dark mode enabled, chrome on windows.

Ohh... yeah that happens. I thought it was describing the entire page flashing as solid white.

Re: How to build a website without frameworks and tons of libraries

#210

Post by gwern » Wed, Jul 05, 2023, 3:27 AM UTC

fluidcruft wrote: post #209

shthed wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the pages flashes light mode when refreshing the page with dark mode enabled, chrome on windows.

Ohh... yeah that happens. I thought it was describing the entire page flashing as solid white.

Well yes, the entire page flashes white if you have FOUC because you implemented it wrong. And since mobile browsers are usually fullscreened, it means the entire device flashes you; I assume you don't use dark-mode much if you haven't noticed this. But dark-mode users do notice and once in a great while, even complain to you about it.