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Windows 8 Consumer Preview released.

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Re: Windows 8 Consumer Preview released.

#201

Post by freehunter »

roadnottaken wrote: post #195
freehunter wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is a US based company. They release their products in the US. If you're outside of the US, you're waiting months or years to get your hands on the new iPhone. Nokia is a Finnish based company. They release their products globally, and generally the US is lower on that list. Nokia treats the US how Apple treats other countries. It's not that different.

That's an interesting point that I hadn't really considered, thanks. That said, Microsoft is an American company and perhaps they should make their own hardware if they really want to compete in the US phone market....

There are certain markets where I feel Microsoft has to be careful in. Making Microsoft brand PCs or phones would get dangerous for their antitrust ruling which only recently ceased. Consoles have a long precedent of having the software directly tied to the hardware, as do MP3 players. PCs and phones, not so much. If Microsoft were to start making their own phones and ended up gaining significant marketshare, there's the chance they could be cited again (though not as strictly if they were not actively anti-competitive). Even Apple has come under federal investigation for potential abuse of their iPod monopoly.

Apple is an interesting case in that they've been allowed to control every aspect of their system because they have such an insignificant marketshare. Their aggressive actions in the mobile arena coupled with their unbridled success may very well see them in the same boat Microsoft was in during the late 90s.

Re: Windows 8 Consumer Preview released.

#202

Post by pseale »

tjoff wrote: post #150
Lewisham wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first thing a power user will do is to go to the old-desktop and stay there, basically not interacting with metro at all. There is no point, it's about as useful as the winkey+tab is on Vista/W7. I don't know if you're trying to troll or you're just incredibly short-sighted, but I'll bite. Windows 8 is clearly designed as a hybrid OS, in the same vein that Ubuntu on Android is, even if Microsoft's marketing team…

I don't see how that goes against what I said. Of course the metro UI has advantages on a tablet, my post was mainly centered around the workstation. Whether you take your workstation with you at the end of the day or not is irrelevant for the work you do on it when it is being used as workstation. If you feel the transition between the two isn't smooth enough that's another point but my first reaction to this is pos…

If you haven't even seen Windows 8, please don't comment on it. It's clear from even a quick look at Windows 8 what awkward transition between "tablet" and "desktop" he's talking about.

Re: Windows 8 Consumer Preview released.

#203

Post by Dylan16807 »

dpark wrote: post #200
Dylan16807 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vista added a bunch of areas that prompt for admin for no reason, and to get in as a limited user is definitely more painful. Note that there is no security need for admin here, just a dumb prompt that you can't second-guess.

Vista did add some prompts for things that an admin could do that really shouldn't have resulted in prompts. What actions that a limited user could previously perform resulted in the new prompts?

The first thing that comes to mind is running regedit. Despite the elaborate ACL system in the registry windows won't run it without admin rights. You can still use any other program including reg.exe to access the registry, but not the convenient one.

Re: Windows 8 Consumer Preview released.

#204

Post by stephanimal »

herge wrote: post #137
stephanimal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one disadvantage, yes. However all registers are now 64 bit, and in general, there are more of them. Furthermore, the 4GB limit does not just concern physical RAM, it also applies elsewhere, like memory mapped files. In general, it is unlikely that you will see poorer performance from 64-bit code compared to its 32-bit counterpart.

Most of the memory used by programs are pointers, and if you double your pointer size, it has a negative impact on the efficientcy of the L1 and L2 cache.

Yes, this is exactly what CurtHagenlocher said.

>> Most of the memory used by programs are pointers

This is a huge generalization, may I add.

Yes, I will not argue that cache usage is less efficient, but I am sure you know that register access is faster than cache access, and we double the amount of registers in x64.

Re: Windows 8 Consumer Preview released.

#205

Post by dpark »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #203
dpark wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vista did add some prompts for things that an admin could do that really shouldn't have resulted in prompts. What actions that a limited user could previously perform resulted in the new prompts?

The first thing that comes to mind is running regedit. Despite the elaborate ACL system in the registry windows won't run it without admin rights. You can still use any other program including reg.exe to access the registry, but not the convenient one.

Did it work pre-vista? If so, I agree that's kind of a lame change. It seems like a pretty minor issue in the grand scheme, since generally users shouldn't be mucking around in the registry, but it's lame nonetheless. I assume that if it worked previously, it was decided that the effort to implement key-specific UAC was just too high, so they implemented whole-app elevation.

Re: Windows 8 Consumer Preview released.

#206

Post by herge »

stephanimal wrote: post #204
herge wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the memory used by programs are pointers, and if you double your pointer size, it has a negative impact on the efficientcy of the L1 and L2 cache.

Yes, this is exactly what CurtHagenlocher said. >> Most of the memory used by programs are pointers This is a huge generalization, may I add. Yes, I will not argue that cache usage is less efficient, but I am sure you know that register access is faster than cache access, and we double the amount of registers in x64.

To quote Donald Knuth, a 64 bit program would "waste half the memory [and] effectively throw away half of the cache".

You may double the number of registers, but you are still shuffling tons of data between your caches and memory, and that is going to be your constraint for most programs. Losing half of the 4mb or 12mb of your L2 or L3 cache because you use 64 bit pointers has a much bigger impact than doubling the number of registers.

Re: Windows 8 Consumer Preview released.

#207

Post by beagle3 »

janardanyri wrote: post #191
beagle3 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you trace back to the beginnings of Microsoft's stagnation, you will find it happens exactly when they started getting sued for antitrust in the US and Europe, and similarly so too did their innovation stall. Or, when they managed to effectively kill Netscape and BeOS, having essentially zero competition. > They kept on producing cool stuff out of their research labs but nearly none of it ever made it out. The s…

The rhetoric in this post is ridiculous, especially when you cherry-pick interpretations of his commentary, castigate him for your interpretation, and question his personal affiliations. If your best interpretation of "innovation" is "web standards," it is clear that we have VERY different perspectives on modern computing. Please consider the tone of your posting.

Did you actually read the post I was replying to?

It is completely devoid of any data - just assertions that are completely false in the world I live in.

> If your best interpretation of "innovation" is "web standards," it is clear that we have VERY different perspectives on modern computing.

Well, in HN the standard topic of "MS stalling" is IE, so I assumed that.

> Please consider the tone of your posting.

Yes, it was a bit aggressive. I've been on HN since the time when a demand for facts or at the very least items that could be discussed (rather than vague notions) was the norm. Most people on this site had joined recently, and think this is a reddit/fox news "everyone's opinion carries the same weight". I don't; I think If you want to advance a position, you have to give some support. Non was given.

Let's start again. Do you think the claims in the post I replied to have any merit? I don't. Do you have any examples we can discuss, since you clearly disagree the ones I brought up are relevant?

Re: Windows 8 Consumer Preview released.

#208

Post by stonemetal »

freehunter wrote: post #139
stonemetal wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the Zune desktop software still being updated? Yes. That is rather like saying the iPod mini wasn't killed off because iTunes is still updated. You are unable to build software with the current sdk that will run on a Zune. Zune device software hasn't been updated since before it was discontinued. So no Zune devices were not integrated into windows phone, they were dropped in the dust bin.

Considering the Zune never had an app store or any official way to distribute Zune apps, I don't see it as a net loss. Microsoft even said that the only officially distributed Zune apps would be from Microsoft themselves. You're talking about the Zune as though it were a single product, like the iPod Mini. It's not. Zune is a product line. Windows Phone is a continuation of the Zune product line. By your reasoning, A…

Only if you miss characterize what I said. I was specifically talking about the ZuneHD. Much like if I had an iPod classic focus on new hardware (wp7 or iPod touch) does me no good I am not invited to play in those reindeer games.

Re: Windows 8 Consumer Preview released.

#209

Post by stonemetal »

freehunter wrote: post #140
recoiledsnake wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No WP7 device is capable of running WP8(or at least that is the rumor.) I thought the rumor was the opposite? http://www.windowsphonedaily.com/2012/02/rumor-apollo-will-s...

By "rumor" he meant "I'm starting this rumor".

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Windows-Phone-7.x-Windows-Phone-... Additional sources claim that Apollo won't be pushed to existing Windows Phone users.

Rather sounds like no upgrades to me.

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