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I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

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201–209 of 209 posts

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is certain fallacy in that. I've never met a person who has ever thought he would like to mooch off welfare or what have you forever, or even a short amount of time. There are barriers that are difficult to see for many middle class people to see. The choice between welfare and work for many people is not between a welfare and a cubicle writing java code, but between welfare and humiliating treatment or backbre…

why so much sympathy for the first world poor? because they are visible? I find sympathy for "poor" people living in fantastic conditions morally repugnant. humanity has serious problems to tackle.

Feeling sympathy for first world poor doesn't mean you can't also feel sympathy for the third world poor.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#202
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should go in China for once, and talk to Chinese people to better understand their situation. They were miserable in the countryside, and the "sweatshops" you mention are already providing them with a better life than what they had. That's why you will keep seeing those kind of news: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/tech-news/fox... By the way, that's where America was like 100 years ago. People nee…

You should go in China for once, and talk to Chinese people to better understand their situation. They were miserable in the countryside, and the "sweatshops" you mention are already providing them with a better life than what they had. LOL. They were "miserable in the countryside" because their old way of living and farming was not a priority anymore for the central government, that needed city workers to build the…

LOL you too. Obviously you are ideology driven and refuse to see the facts that Chinese people make the deliberate choice, nowadays, to go in the cities and work in those "sweatshops" instead of staying in the countryside. Nobody is forcing them to do so. Nobody is forcing them to stay in the "sweatshops" with a gun on their head. It is a pragmatic choice.

And Yes, Living is better than dying of starvation. I don't know how one can even argue with that. If you live you can get married, have a family and children, and expand your overall satisfaction that you achieved something in the end.

I have been in China and I have seen and talked with the people who choose to lead that life, and for me this is very clear that they are better off. Feel free to believe whatever the evenings news tell you about the horrible conditions at Foxconn and other companies alike, they will still keep queuing for a job there, no matter what you think of them.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your point that "private property is an invention of the State". There is no need for any state to claim property on something. As you said, as long as you can defend what you have, it "belongs" to you. I'm pretty sure prehistoric men had a concept of property. Even animals have a sense of property. A dog will defend the bone it likes to chew on. A bird will fight to defend its nest. Property is rathe…

Again, please put this rhetoric in perspective, not in the eyes of a 21st century person from a developped society, but in the eyes of a person of that time, who had the choice between staying in an enpoverished countryside, potentially victim of starvation and malnourishment, and the perspective of having a stable, paid job in a factory. Let's not play the "they chose it" or "at least they were fed" argument for tho…

> I wouldn't call it exactly "progressing on the social ladder" either. Those people were dirt poor, they died dirt poor, and their children were dirt poor also, usually working on the same dead end conditions. With the occasional success story.

I disagree. They did not die as poor as they started off. They were able to save a little, raise children and some of them did get education. This is the result of wealth creation. Life expectancy increased. They WERE better off.

By the way, facts and studies on the subject do not corroborate your theories:

"According to estimates by economist N. F. R. Crafts, British income per person (in 1970 U.S. dollars) rose from about $400 in 1760 to $430 in 1800, to $500 in 1830, and then jumped to $800 in 1860. (For many centuries before the industrial revolution, in contrast, periods of falling income offset periods of rising income.) Crafts’s estimates indicate slow growth lasting from 1760 to 1830 followed by higher growth beginning sometime between 1830 and 1860. For this doubling of real income per person between 1760 and 1860 not to have made the lowest-income people better off, the share of income going to the lowest 65 percent of the population would have had to fall by half for them to be worse off after all that growth. It did not. In 1760, the lowest 65 percent received about 29 percent of total income in Britain; in 1860, their share was down only four percentage points to 25 percent. So the lowest 65 percent were substantially better off, with an increase in average real income of more than 70 percent."

And this one too:

"Other evidence supports the conclusion of slow improvement in living standards during the years of the industrial revolution. Crafts and C. K. Harley have emphasized the limited spread of modernization in England throughout most of the century of the industrial revolution. Feinstein estimated consumption per person for each decade between the 1760s and 1850s, and found only a small rise in consumption between 1760 and 1820 and a rapid rise after 1820. On the other hand, according to historians E. A. Wrigley and Roger S. Schofield, between 1781 and 1851, life expectancy at birth rose from thirty-five years to forty years, a 15 percent increase. Although this increase was modest compared with what was to come, it was nevertheless substantial."

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/IndustrialRevolutionandth...

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#204
post #167
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if everybody has their own warehouse. Why would you want that though? It would be better to rent WaaS (Warehousing as a Service - you heard it here first folks) so that specialized companies can have warehouses build right next to the harbor the goods came in from, and spread load across many completely automated warehouses are required. In December store Santa hats, in July swimming trunks. As a seller you don'…

I think Amazon offers WaaS...?

Yep, this already exists and is called Fulfillment

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#205
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another key difference is that the set of thoughts whose public expression could get a person killed, and the actual danger from expressing them, has been much smaller in the US than in those two countries for the past hundred years or so. We've had our inquisitions here, but I think people tend to recognize them and call them what they are pretty quickly. See Eleanor Roosevelt's very public comments about McCarthyis…

Good thing you're not a racist, JohnnyBrown. I take it the name "James Watson" doesn't ring any instant bells for you. It's very easy to confuse an absence of persecution, with an absence of people who agree with you being persecuted. That just shows that you're on top and your enemies are on the bottom. Ie, all's right with the world. Of course Eleanor Roosevelt didn't like McCarthyism - it was an attempt to persecu…

Good points. Also MLK and Malcolm X could stand as pretty prominent counterexamples to my argument.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> respect and recognition of private property At some level, private property is an invention of the State. Without that, the property belongs to whoever can defend it, and whoever has the most guns wins. This becomes even more significant with the advent of intellectual property, also an invention of the State. There are many digital examples of "everything belongs to everyone" that are going extremely well, and luc…

I disagree with your point that "private property is an invention of the State". There is no need for any state to claim property on something. As you said, as long as you can defend what you have, it "belongs" to you. I'm pretty sure prehistoric men had a concept of property. Even animals have a sense of property. A dog will defend the bone it likes to chew on. A bird will fight to defend its nest. Property is rathe…

> As you said, as long as you can defend what you have, it "belongs" to you.

...in which case, there is no ownership of property. Someone else can just come along and take it.

Honestly, embracing this kind of "natural law" does make sense to me, as it's least internally consistent, but I don't see it as synonymous with calling the cops because someone takes something that a legal document says is "yours".

> Government is, by itself, a huge body of asymmetrical power against individuals. You do not "choose" it, when you are born you are already, automatically, subject to it.

> When you buy some goods, however, every dollar you spend is a vote for a product, a company. Should that company screw up, you will not buy it again.

I sense some cognitive dissonance here. So when it comes to politics, people are always stupid, picking tall wealthy men with good hair and no conscience; but when it comes to spending decisions, people are always smart, based on their rational self-interest.

Now, I'll concede that capitalism has a faster, tighter feedback loop: you generally don't have to wait 2-6 years to change your mind. (Why there has been no public advocacy for rethinking the concept of only voting periodically, I have no idea.)

That aside, I see the same phenomena in both arenas of human decision-making. People are mostly smart, left to their own devices, but they are sometimes irrational with both voting decisions and purchasing decisions. Moreover, there is a strong incentive in both arenas to manipulate those decisions, and the industries we have developed around this goal have become extremely efficient: electioneers, marketers, public relations, and all other sorts of "compliance professionals".

In my mind, the question is not whether democracy is good, but whether it is possible. I have yet to conceive of a social structure in which the smart and/or rich cannot play the game at the expense of the foolish and/or poor, whether it plays out at a political rally, or a corporate boardroom.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#207
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because unions have government protection, CEOs don't, and it is up to the shareholders to maximize value.

That's a meaningless blanket statement. Yes, unions have government protection. So do CEOs, since a corporate entity exists to protect CEOs and others in the company from personal liability. Unions in the US also have government restrictions on what they can do. As one example, the Taft–Hartley Act prohibits a number of union actions, restricts First Amendment rights (eg, union offers must sign non-communist affidavi…

It isn't a meaningless statement. Unions, at least where I am from, are legally allowed to force individuals to join the union. Corporations are not legally allowed to fire everyone from the union, or demand non-unionship from their employees.

Corporations are the way that contracts can exist between parties without relying on the location or livelihood of individuals. Corporations are the reason you can sue, 40 years after the fact, the organization that polluted the river that brought about your colon cancer.

The Taft-Hartley Act was fucking retarded, but that isn't anymore reason to create further law against corporations (besides banks, since the fractional reserve system is moronic and introduces huge risks into the system.

I wasn't directing my comment at the article I was answer the person's question: Why are there negative sentiments against unions. The reason is that many of us have dealt with them at one point or another and they artificially aided by government law. All of them.

Most CEOs are not.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why so much sympathy for the first world poor? because they are visible? I find sympathy for "poor" people living in fantastic conditions morally repugnant. humanity has serious problems to tackle.

Feeling sympathy for first world poor doesn't mean you can't also feel sympathy for the third world poor.

If I have a million dollars I care less about $1. If someone is being tortured I care less about someone working 12 hour days.

utility functions are not linear.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking in purely economic terms (i.e., inherent human value aside), a consumer is only valuable for what they have to offer in trade. If you're a producer but I don't have anything you could want (you already have it or the tech to create it effortlessly), the price signal I'm sending as a consumer is $0.00 for anything you'd sell.

effortlessly Science fiction aside, even if you can produce everything 10-100x more efficiently than me, it is still worth us trading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_Advantage

Interesting read. My point was that a 'pure' consumer, who consumes at least as much as they produce, is at best worthless in economic terms. Nevertheless, I agree there is prosperity in the application of even humble means.
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