Live data from Hacker News

The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

theverge.com

201–210 of 480 posts

Re: The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the crazies ranting about "white erasure" are making it harder to criticize these race-reboots on the grounds they should be criticized for: laziness. Mediocre products where the selling point is, "we swapped races, give us points," remain mediocre and are unbelievably lazy compared to what we should see... which is new and interesting things with diversity baked in. Unfortunately the hysterical racists a…

I just let it be "lazy" as you say as the rest of tons of other stuff is lazy and don't bother to think to much about it. I'd rather focus on stuff I actually like.

That's a good default, I think people who spend all of their time obsessing about what they hate are really missing out.

Re: The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

#202
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

same, but for r/music for praising songs that have fade out endings

Add drum mixes panned from the audience perspective instead of drummer perspective and you’ve got my vote.

I always mix audience perspective because I usually stand in front of the drum kit when I see bands live. Do most people stand behind them? Am I doing something wrong?

Re: The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

#203
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my thought as well. To answer your question, though, I imagine bad faith actors of various flavors will be flocking the site: 1. Corporate marketing departments 2. Unpopular political/religious factions seeking to surreptitiously "move the needle" 3. Those who wanted to become mods before but didn't make the cut for completely valid reasons. Now they have an opportunity, only the quality will decrease as a r…

There's been no "make the cut". There's been first-come-first-served, followed by obtaining the favor of the first-come.

Well, in this case it'll be interesting to see the power-hungry betray the higher ups on the mod team to get a better position.

Re: The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

#204
post #12
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same can be said about how they mods are treating the rest of the sub.

How so?

People want to participate in their communities and have access to historical posts and comments. Mods are not letting them do that.

Re: The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

#205
I mod a top-1000-by-subs subreddit with about 800-900K subs. It has tight rules and aggressive automods. And people like that subreddit.

Not gonna lie, if reddit strips our moderation, once the automod rules get figured out by the spammers, the value that particular subreddit will collapse into trash and spam.

so, sure, aim that footgun and start pulling the trigger... go on then.

Re: The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

#206
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my thought as well. To answer your question, though, I imagine bad faith actors of various flavors will be flocking the site: 1. Corporate marketing departments 2. Unpopular political/religious factions seeking to surreptitiously "move the needle" 3. Those who wanted to become mods before but didn't make the cut for completely valid reasons. Now they have an opportunity, only the quality will decrease as a r…

> 2. Unpopular political/religious factions seeking to surreptitiously "move the needle" How would that be different from the status quo?

Despite the fact I think I have an answer, let me say this is a good and important question.

In the status quo, Reddit, the mods, and the subreddit users have all coevolved with each other.

https://www.britannica.com/science/coevolution

They may not be entirely happy with each other, but they've developed with each other slowly over time, developed callouses, and generally worked out how to live with each other. Even if a mod here leaves and a mod there joins, the incremental changes to the community can be absorbed.

A complete replacement of the mod structure of a subreddit, especially a lot of subreddits at a time, will cause more chaos than you may initially expect. In ecosystem terms, imagine simply yanking out an entire species and trying to replace it by engineering fiat. Yes, eventually the ecosystem will resettle into some new equilibrium... but there is no guarantee that that equilibrium will be similarly healthy, biodiverse, etc. There's no guarantee it will even be an ecosystem at all; the Sahara Desert is basically an ecosystem that was so disrupted that it just straight-up collapsed. It is theoretically possible for it to end up healthier, but, well, look out in the real world at what ecosystem modification tends to produce and I think you'll be on the right track.

Replacing all the co-evolved mods with brand new ones is going to be intrinsically more disruptive than you may think. Moreover, the selection mechanism for the new mods is also likely to be highly disruptive; however they do it they're not going to be taking some mythical random sample, there's going to be some sort of systematic correlation between them all that will further tend to result in the communities experiencing rapid and non-trivial change. Plus, new mods will have no habits, no tools developed, no support structure from other existing mods, etc.

Continuing the biological metaphor, this is all coming at a time when Reddit is inflaming the entire community. Speaking for myself, I'm not particularly passionate about the API issue, I've just been following the community lead on it for the subreddit I'm a mod in, but I am definitely taking note of the loud notes of contempt coming out of Reddit in this drama. If this is the level of contempt they have for us all in vetted public statements, how much more contempt we must all be held in inside the organization when they can speak freely with each other. Consciously and otherwise, people are picking up on this, and things that a user might otherwise have pushed through will become reasons to leave for inflamed users.

The sum total of all of this is that while Reddit has the technical ability to remove and add mod status as they see fit, the community dynamics are more complicated than someone simply modeling the community as "the given set of people" may understand. They are living organisms of their own, if not ecosystems of their own, driven by a complex mishmash of relationships between the participants, and the level of disruption will be greater than you expect. Moreover, if you are not looking at the situation properly, the disruption will initially be smaller than you expect. The first day the invasive species is introduced into the ecosystem, nothing appears to be wrong. The first week after Reddit just boots all the mods and installs their own may seem like nothing much has gone wrong. The initial sound and fury will die down. But the sound and the fury isn't the damage; that's just the inflammation. The damage will only be seen in the weeks and months afterwards.

One of the most challenging things about managing communities is that for the most part, in my considered opinion, mass exodus is not the beginning of the trouble. It is the end. If you judge the quality of your community management simply by the membership numbers, you won't be getting any alarms until well after it is too late. By raw numbers I doubt in 2-4 weeks that Reddit will appear to be in any trouble. But the processes set into motion by such a drastic action will play out nevertheless.

Among the many disruptions a community may experience, rolling back to your original question, is a surprising shift in the community consensus, one that has not necessarily co-evolved with all the rest of the membership. A comfortable egalitarian community may become very doctrinaire about certain political matters, or, equally shocking to an established community, vice versa. It isn't just a question of whether a community is pushing a particular agenda, but which one. A sudden shift can be disruptive to the entire community ecosystem, even if there's a community right over there with exactly the same agenda happily functioning, because they co-evolved with it.

Re: The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

#207
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The /r/science mods are all coming back on Monday, a decision they made a few days ago, before any threats were made. They are worried that if they got replaced, it would be with people who would destroy the community they worked so hard to build. I suspect a lot of communities, especially the smaller ones, feel the same way.

On the one hand I can understand it...but also that is such a feeble stance. Mods that feel that strongly about protecting their community would do so much better in a federated context.

Federation works for Twitter, it doesn't work for Reddit. If my Mastodon instance federates with yours, I can see your posts, you can see mine, we're fully merged. If my lemmy instance federates with yours, we can browse each other's communities, but those communities themselves don't merge. The userbase merges but the communities do not, and the community is the base unit that gives Reddit value. Federated Reddits will never take off for this reason. You either have a bunch of fractured communities that are all worse because there is no network effect, or you have one instance (or one community) absorb all the traffic and become its own centralized fiefdom.

Re: The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

#208
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my thought as well. To answer your question, though, I imagine bad faith actors of various flavors will be flocking the site: 1. Corporate marketing departments 2. Unpopular political/religious factions seeking to surreptitiously "move the needle" 3. Those who wanted to become mods before but didn't make the cut for completely valid reasons. Now they have an opportunity, only the quality will decrease as a r…

Finally, I can fulfill my destiny of taking over r/television and banning anyone who says anything positive about a show with a laugh track. It should never have been allowed to begin with.

I’m gonna ban everyone who complains about Ted Lasso.

Barbecue sauce.

Re: The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

#209
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my thought as well. To answer your question, though, I imagine bad faith actors of various flavors will be flocking the site: 1. Corporate marketing departments 2. Unpopular political/religious factions seeking to surreptitiously "move the needle" 3. Those who wanted to become mods before but didn't make the cut for completely valid reasons. Now they have an opportunity, only the quality will decrease as a r…

> 2. Unpopular political/religious factions seeking to surreptitiously "move the needle" How would that be different from the status quo?

Well, Apollo and Boost will stop working...

Re: The note Reddit sent to moderators threatening them if they don’t reopen

#210
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been no "make the cut". There's been first-come-first-served, followed by obtaining the favor of the first-come.

This is what I don’t understand about the claims that any next generation of mods would be incapable of doing the job. I think it will be exactly like the current status quo. You see subreddit and mod drama happening all the time. So many people want to moderate a local subreddit for Seattle that we have at least three different ones. The mod teams for each all have strong (and different) political views. But the thr…

> So many people want to moderate a local subreddit for Seattle that we have at least three different ones. The mod teams for each all have strong (and different) political views. But the threat of their community splitting keeps the mods acting fairly reasonable when in the public eye, because each seems to desperately want to be the Seattle subreddit.

Yeah, this is something I’ve seen multiple times on Reddit. Mods on larger subs start putting into place capricious rules, and told the users that if they don’t like it, start their own subs. Then if someone does this and the sub actually start gaining traction, the original sub gets nervous and suddenly starts relenting because they don’t actually want users to go elsewhere, they just want to exert as much control as they can before they trigger an actual exodus.

It shows the importance of competition if we want users to be treated fairly. Unfortunately, there’s strong network effects working against it (both inside Reddit, and among the web in general), and mods have made things worse by working to shut down rivals.

Either way, though, the supply of mods greatly outstrips the demand.

Post reply on HN