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Debian 12 “Bookworm”

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201–210 of 241 posts

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#201
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Slackware!

There are of course some niche distris that aren't based on the "big ones". But I'm not sure Slackware is still at this point relevant enough to be named in a row with the others I've mentioned. Of course the sampling was subjective, and I didn't intended to marginalize any not mentioned distris. I just thought the others are too niche to be included in such kind of pick.

I want to downvote you for sentimental reasons. I won't but I want to.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#202
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was involved in the discussion, and I'm also torn on that issue, but at least you can disable installation of non-free firmware and install Debian without any non-free software. On the other hand, firmware is a convoluted issue. It was always present, but became increasingly visible over the years. While I'm a strong Free Software supporter, firmware is one of the hardest parts to convert, because of the IP it enta…

While I'm glad to see proprietary firmware both included and segregated in its own repo, I'm wondering why RISC-V wasn't added as a supported architecture in Debian 12? It seems like that supporting at least an open ISA would move closer to the possibility of what Debian wants to see happen... so why isn't it as a distro helping to make it happen?

It's simple - because the port is not ready yet.

The plan is to have it ready for Debian 13: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2023/06/msg00...

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#203
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened?

- Tried 23.04 and found too many bugs (I guess this doesn't count) - Some day 22.04 randomly started without GUI and I couldn't get it back either with ubuntu-desktop and startx - I installed a Python package without a virtual environment and it somehow interfered with system Python, bootloader broke It's possible that those errors were recoverable but I'm not a linux expert and I couldn't repair it after ~2h of stac…

> I installed a Python package without a virtual environment

Coincidentally, doing this is now disabled in Debian Bookworm.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#204
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been thinking of switching to Debian from Pop!_OS and have a Thinkpad X1 Extreme Gen 2 with Nvidia GeForce GTX 1650 - if graphics drivers are an issue, then my wish is dead in water.

I would play with the livecd for a while first. Even straight ubuntu gave me problems on my gen1 (wifi, sleep, graphics...). I switched it back to win10 and have a Carbon for Linux now.

Makes sense. I went with the Extreme model because I needed to drive one 4K + two HD monitors from it and was under the impression that Intel XE graphics are not sufficient for it - happy to be corrected on this front (Nvidia has been nothing but trouble on Linux).

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#205
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do I get it right that you mean > 90 percent of distro use is Debian-based? Because that can hardly be the case

Ubuntu and its derivatives are included.

Yes. But Red Hat, Fedora, openSUSE, SLE, Arch, Alpine, Slackware, Gentoo, NixOS are not. I have a hard time to think these represent less than 10 percent all together

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#206

Do you recommend switching from Ubuntu TLS to this one? Even to a heavy LXC and multipass user? What had kept me on Ubuntu so far has been their out of box laptop support (I.e. WiFi drivers).

Moved back to Debian because of lxc on Ubuntu requiring snaps. Turns out same problem on Debian. Snapd consumes 100% cpu. All. The. Time. Hoping Bookworm will solve it. Else I will be moving to Archlinux, which has lxc without snapd.

Interesting - I don't observe such behavior with snap/lxd on my Ubuntu 20.04 and 22.04 boxes.

Not a heavy user though - maximum 15-20 VEs (virtual enforcements) per server.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#207
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened?

- Tried 23.04 and found too many bugs (I guess this doesn't count) - Some day 22.04 randomly started without GUI and I couldn't get it back either with ubuntu-desktop and startx - I installed a Python package without a virtual environment and it somehow interfered with system Python, bootloader broke It's possible that those errors were recoverable but I'm not a linux expert and I couldn't repair it after ~2h of stac…

> installed a Python package without a virtual environment and it somehow interfered with system Python, bootloader broke

Shouldn't the OS python be protected by root?

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#208
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it "firmware" is essentially just the same as an EEPROM, except that using volatile memory is cheaper and easier to upgrade. No one seems to have great issues with EEPROMs (FSF doesn't anyway), but uploading that same code to the device when it starts is a huge problem? I never understood this, and especially given the huge practical trade-offs the entire thing seems fighting windmills. The Linux-libr…

Debian distributes firmware stored in volatile RAM because it is either required to use the hardware, or, as is the case for CPU microcode updates, highly recommended for most users. As far as I know, Debian does not distribute proprietary EEPROM firmware updates at all, as these are generally not required to use the hardware (and, depending on the device and update in question, may or may not be recommended for most…

Debian distributes fwupd, which accesses the Linux Vendor Firmware Service, which distributes updates for proprietary firmware stored on devices:

https://fwupd.org/ https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware/Updates

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#209
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was involved in the discussion, and I'm also torn on that issue, but at least you can disable installation of non-free firmware and install Debian without any non-free software. On the other hand, firmware is a convoluted issue. It was always present, but became increasingly visible over the years. While I'm a strong Free Software supporter, firmware is one of the hardest parts to convert, because of the IP it enta…

While I'm glad to see proprietary firmware both included and segregated in its own repo, I'm wondering why RISC-V wasn't added as a supported architecture in Debian 12? It seems like that supporting at least an open ISA would move closer to the possibility of what Debian wants to see happen... so why isn't it as a distro helping to make it happen?

At the end of the day, this was because the hardware ecosystem (and the hardware support in Linux/bootloaders/etc) isn't really "ready" yet, and also there was slow and unclear communications between the porting team, the core Debian teams and one of the hosting providers. Eventually the teams provisionally approved the port, but after that the needed actions weren't done in time for the archive-wide rebuild that happens during the process of an unofficial port becoming official. I'm not on the porting team, but am on the Debian sysadmin team, and tried to speed up the process and make it more transparent. Debian contributors are mostly volunteers, so things take time.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#210
post #200
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Debian project has been historically a vocal proponent for open hardware/firmware/drivers etc. and here we are in 2023 having Debian somewhat controversially acknowledging that proprietary firmware may be required at least by some users, to some degree. So I am suggesting that if they really want to get there that they might need to help facilitate the change they would like to see. Is RISC-V the be-all, end-all?…

Debian is not a general advocacy organization. Debian produces the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and that’s mostly it. The incentive to do the work necessary to add a new architecture to Debian must, in general, come from outside Debian itself. Debian will probably not, as a project, go around looking for new architectures to add. Debian depends on other people doing the work and presenting it to Debian, which will…

The RISC-V port of Debian was driven by internal Debian contributors, not by external actors. Similarly for Debian kFreeBSD and some other ports. OTOH, for LoongArch and ARC, those ports are driven almost entirely by the companies selling those chips. So I would say it is a mix.
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