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3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

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Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that the problem some posters are alluding to is the kind where we should be placing blame. The problem is: - Humans invent something useful and cool. - Humans discover that the cool and useful thing is toxic as fuck, but only after years go by. It takes years for the awareness of the toxicity to become widespread enough for everyone to concur it’s a problem. Often, we only find out about the toxicity a…

The problem is the point between 2 and 3: - Humans who discovered the toxicity lie, bribe, bully, and cheat to stop anyone else from finding out. The solution is delayed by decades and deaths go through the roof.

Yup.

But we have seen that movie many times, haven’t we? It’s a given that if someone builds a business on a thing and that thing turns out to cause buttcancer, they gonna cover that shit up.

Sometimes covering it up is easy if you just rely on scientific ground truths, like “the dose is the poison”. Even water is a poison if you chug too much of it, so just the discovery that something is poisonous at some dose is almost like tautological. I wouldn’t be surprised if part of the “cover up” was based on that kind of science.

Basically, if there’s utility to something, then there’s money to be made, careers to be made, legacies at stake, etc - and that will bias folks towards covering shit up.

I bet you the folks involved in the cover up were good people who just failed to check their biases.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#202
post #117

Strange that we sue companies for selling products we haven't even bothered to ban yet. The idea that 3M "knew the whole time" is kooky when we aren't even sure now, 15 years after people started looking into this, whether we should ban them. Scientists, regulators and legislatures should decide what the rules are and then hold companies accountable for actually breaking the rules.

Scientists, regulators, and legislatures already decided the rules. They're not being sued for "selling products we haven't even bothered to ban yet." That summary is inaccurate.

They're being sued for selling products they knew to be toxic, without disclosing that information, which is already against the law.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#203
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cast-iron is a huge pain to maintain in my experience, but ceramic pans are a good non-carcinogenic alternative.

once cast iron is properly seasoned it maintains very well, and can last for generations! and they are dirt cheap to boot. but yes there is a little learning curve. they are heavy, so use two hands when handling. it must be seasoned (many come preseasoned) and never put it in a dishwasher for example -- but when properly seasoned the nonstick properties are so effective food just rinses off. i encourage everyone who…

I also got a high carbon steel pan which is not as thick and heavy but has all the other properties of cast iron.

I had a few “ceramic” pans but inevitably they become scratched (and useless) after a year or two in everyday use

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#204
post #142
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've worked to reduce plastics & chemicals in our house. Some things we do: * We use silk dental floss (we use Radius) * We use glass storage containers instead of Tupperware * For cooking, we use All-Clad. * If a recipe calls for non-stick (e.g., pancakes) I use a braiser from Le Creuset, which works reasonably well. (Edited: formatting)

I switched to carbon steel a few years ago. There's a definite learning curve when it comes to getting them seasoned properly and a lot of people give up. But once they are seasoned, nothing sticks to them, and they need almost no maintenance. I'm never giving them up!

The great thing about them is that if you really mess them up you can just sand them down and re-season

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s just a fundamental problem in science and engineering. In my opinion is is a problem not of science and engineering, but of human greed. We do not need these products, we want them. As a species we did fine without them but suddenly in the last 100 years we need the so desperately? Adding, no one can give me a response, just downvotes. Why is the aversion to speaking about greed so strong here on hacker news?

Greed is always part of it. It’s a part of everything. Thats why I don’t usually use greed as an explanation for stuff. Of course greed is part of the system and sometimes it causes bad things to happen. Sometimes it also causes good things to happen. So, if you want to prevent the bad, it’s useful to look for some explanation that isn’t just “greed”.

> Greed is always part of it. It’s a part of everything.

That statement is doing allot of heavy lifting.

Greed: excessive or rapacious desire, especially for wealth or possessions.

That definition of greed is certainly not a part of everything in my life.

Can you name something that that greed leads to something good happening?

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#206
post #9

The chemicals in question are of type PFAS and believe it or not, they're still legal to use today, though they're being phased out and banned in a few years. The problem is 3M scientists have know toxicity to human and have withheld the information to the public and regulators. Since 1970s.

All those paper replacements for things like straws are coated with them :)

This is insane… We know it’s dangerous. But here it is still used in food ustensiles used by millions.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#207
Prozac, Lipitor, Flonase and about of third of new pharmaceuticals are PFAS. Humans can figure out how to use this technology. Destroying 3M just means it gets made in China with no oversight.

Lawyers will win in the end regardless of what happens.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that the problem some posters are alluding to is the kind where we should be placing blame. The problem is: - Humans invent something useful and cool. - Humans discover that the cool and useful thing is toxic as fuck, but only after years go by. It takes years for the awareness of the toxicity to become widespread enough for everyone to concur it’s a problem. Often, we only find out about the toxicity a…

> Humans discover that the cool and useful thing is toxic as fuck, but only after years go by. It takes years for the awareness of the toxicity to become widespread enough for everyone to concur it’s a problem. There's no reason for there to be years between discovery and action. It doesn't matter how quickly the discovery ripples through lay society. Once it's known that something is harming and/or killing people, i…

"There's no reason for there to be years between discovery and action."

Democracy is slow.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#209
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All those paper replacements for things like straws are coated with them :)

This is insane… We know it’s dangerous. But here it is still used in food ustensiles used by millions.

Prozac is PFAS. Everything is toxic when it hits a certain human concentration levels. Now that we know, we have to manage waste better.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#210

So what, they'll pay a few million (even few billion) fine, and go back to doing it anyways. Having grown up as part of the "Maryvale Cancer Cluster" in Arizona in the 70's with DuPont dumping fluorine and other bad things into the well water and giving most of my family leukemia, cancer, and who knows what else. Class action ensued, DuPont lawyers fought it for 30 years, end of the day my dad got a check for $200 do…

"So what, they'll pay a few million (even few billion) fine, and go back to doing it anyways."

The chemicals in question have stopped being made for decades by 3M.

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