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Rust: The wrong people are resigning

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Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#201

Post by kwhitefoot »

meindnoch wrote: post #137
warent wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering two of the first commenters in this gist are Kirby and a Dall-E anime girl, sounds like a spot on assessment. Not that people should be shamed for their personal interests! Everyone should imbue some of their personal style in their work, that's how we generate creativity and so forth. That being said, I think the problem is when personal style overlaps too much in what needs more professional separation…

It can also be pretty off-putting for women to be honest. When someone's avatar is an AI-generated "waifu" picture with deep cleavage, I don't think it looks welcoming for the average female programmer...

It's not welcoming to this male programmer either.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#202

Post by Tao3300 »

d3nj4l wrote: post #8

In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is so much hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cabal of four or five people making decisions - that it makes the entire Rust "community" look juvenile. This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!

There's a little bit of a "getting out at the right time so I can say I was there when it was good" vibe to it. As a total Rust outsider I can understand. Last time I tried to learn it, it seemed to prefer trading one set of problems ubiquitous to computing for a worse set unique to its niche. I don't know if people really like it or just want to be seen liking it, but I'd rather keep turning the wheel that makes Java code and have time for my other interests.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#203

Post by lolinder »

Klonoar wrote: post #196
lolinder wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took it as referring to the world in general, not Rust specifically. It happens every day in the news that someone loudly resigns to make their point. It's much less common that you see an article about how so-and-so spent five years of their life working hard to change a culture from the inside and finally is seeing results.

You can certainly try to view it that way, but I would submit that, at best, you're being overly charitable regarding interpretation when the very thread we're on is centered on discussing issues within the Rust ecosystem itself.

Oh, they're certainly meaning it to also refer to the situation at hand. I took it as "I wish we had more role models that would stay in and stand up, because the people loudly resigning in this case are copying others they've seen loudly resign."

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#204

Post by Gibbon1 »

shri_krishna wrote: post #65
jhatemyjob wrote: post #25

This is why I refuse to take Rust, Go, or Swift seriously. There are so many other languages out there that aren't insanely political with so many people's hands in it. There is no way good decisions can be made in an environment like that. Of course, the main advantage of joining the Rust cult is that the job market for "Rust programmers" is pretty well-defined, so labeling yourself as a "Rust programmer" will allow…

I love Go. I don't see any controversies surrounding Go. Or did I miss something?

Whole thing around generics where Pike and the community would attack the competence of anyone suggesting that go was lacking for not having them.

That left a bad bad taste in my mouth.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#205

Post by jcranmer »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #6

> downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully Who would have suspected this was racially motivated? Not to defend any actions by anyone, but a keynote is an unusual place to talk about experimental feature a language is considering (unless it's a small component of a bigger update/forecast). That said once the decision was made they should have gone through with it.

> a keynote is an unusual place to talk about experimental feature a language is considering (unless it's a small component of a bigger update/forecast).

Quite the opposite, I believe. Since a keynote is seen by a dramatically larger slice of the audience, it's a good slot for talks meant to provoke thoughts and discussion, even if that discussion isn't necessarily one you agree with.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#206

Post by meindnoch »

sangnoir wrote: post #190
meindnoch wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but we can still make an educated guess on who's behind the fictional cartoon character...

To what end?

I'm not sure I understand the question... Because normally you'd want to discuss the work/actions of a human person, not an animated picture? :D

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#207

Post by Agingcoder »

euiq wrote: post #155
caust1c wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Golang has lots of good examples of design discussions without vitriol in their RFCs and proposals. There is the occasional bikeshedding and needless bickering granted, but it mostly stays civil and is the most mature language community I've ever had the pleasure of being a part of.

Clearly the solution is to clone Russ Cox.

That made me laugh thanks.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#208

Post by twelfthnight »

pg_1234 wrote: post #156
twelfthnight wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. Feels like there is a lot of pressure these days that if you are part of a "bad" system then _you_ are bad, even if you are trying to improve it from the inside. So it's understandable people quit instead of taking on the burden of having to prove their "goodness", it's…

The "don't leave, stay and fix things from the inside" pitch is how the political schemers try to pull the tech talent back into an arena where they can be worn down into submission, so that their skills can be co-opted by those whose only real talent is to steal the productivity of others. The only way to free a project from such entrenched rot is an ultimatum; "You can have the builders or the schemers, but not bot…

Agree with you that in the case of entrenched rot there's not much that "stay and fix things from the inside" can do to help. I just don't think that the Rust community/leadership has gotten to that point. OP's blog seems to support that, too:

> I was able to reassure myself, by checking these private discussion places, that there were good people, fighting for the right thing to be done. That things weren’t irremediably broken. That there was hope for improvement in the near future.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#209

Post by thesuperbigfrog »

andrewflnr wrote: post #191
serial_dev wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am surprised how people pretend to be outraged over a fork of an open source language. They are outraged by the fork because having a fork reach thousand stars so quickly made it harder to ignore the reality that people who love the language were fed up with the leadership. Forking is the essence of open source software. Don't like something somebody else is doing with a software? It's open source, so you do it you…

Forking is a huge resource sink, if it goes anywhere at all. It disrupts network effects that software benefits from. It is, if nothing else, leaving a local maximum of utility for everyone. In short, it's inconvenient, if not actually painful and heralds future inconvenience/pain. Anger may not be wise, depending on the specifics, but it should absolutely not be surprising.

Forking might be seen as a form of protest against the current leadership or their failure to address the needs and concerns of the community.

If the community does not agree with the leadership's actions (or failure to act) then a fork might be a possible road ahead.

Compare:

OpenOffice - LibreOffice

Jenkins - Hudson

MySQL - MariaDB

and many others.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#210

Post by dralley »

nmarkn wrote: post #179

I'm slightly on the side of JeanHeyd Meneide, on the other hand he strongly participated in cancelling Stallman: https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235124.html The Rust situation seems to be instance the woke purging each other, Soviet style.

RMS has explicitly tried to claim the ability to veto group decisions within GNU affiliated projects in the past even though he never had that power implicitly nor explicitly in the past.

His cancellation has as much to do with pissing off so many of the people around him as anything else.

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