Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms • Hacker News Board

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#201

Post by 7952 » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 10:30 AM UTC

DrThunder wrote: post #199

7952 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your "everyone knows" is an "appeal to the people" falacy. The grid operator in the UK certainly thinks it is possible to have a 100% renewable grid. Although I guess that the political situation in the USA precludes a rational policy. Every argument turns into a culture war sooner or later. The opposition is criticised for moral weakness (child slave battery) whilst your own side are blameless victims.

WOW you're going to use the UK as an example for renewable energy right now??? Have you been paying attention at all? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/05/uk-prepares... https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/uk-wind-solar-builde... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/01/uk-effor... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/21/energy-cris... https://e360.yale.edu/features/africa-europe-s…

The issues ovet winter in the UK were caused by gas supply concerns and low availability of French nuclear power. I am not really sure why you think that is the fault of the renewable industry. But anyway I pointed to the UK because the grid operator has a plan to deliver 100% renewables. But it doesn't need to be reached immediately and may never be reached. It is not a binary thing. The brilliant thing about electricity is that it is fungible. It is the same regardless of which particular "god" you have faith in. I actually live in a country with full electric heating and much of the electricity comes from renewables. Have not had a power cut for years and am still alive and warm. It is not faith in fossil fuels or renewables that keeps me alive but high quality engineering. That can exist in fossil fuel or renewables.

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#202

Post by fsckboy » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 2:54 AM UTC

Gwypaas wrote: post #97

fnordpiglet wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utilities are generally paid for by the users regardless of their cost. Investors are typically insulated in so far as the project completes, which is completely normal. It’s not like there’s some sort of call provision on a bond that asks for more money from the bond holder if the project costs more. Typically you would simply issue more bonds. Instead of issuing bonds and paying interest on those out of utility bil…

Depends on if you have a regulated or open electricity market. You describe a regulated market. On the other hand, Europe by and large operates on a marginal pricing open market with utilities providing the transmission grid and stabilization services. In that market the investors take the losses. Unless huge state subsidies are brought out like Hinkley Point C leading to the government guaranteeing a strike price of…

> Depends on if you have a regulated or open electricity market. You describe a regulated market.

what's being described is a regulated natural monopoly, standard economics. No economist would recommend unregulated natural monopolies.

marginal pricing would not pay for a transmission grid, and utility investors would not agree to build or maintain a grid without it being paid for. Marginal pricing refers to the cost of electricity given the grid, where there is no extra amount covering the cost of extra grid capacity.

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#203

Post by Schroedingersat » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 12:04 PM UTC

Manuel_D wrote: post #135

Gwypaas wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take the 20% cost reduction the last two generations lead to. That would change Flamanville 3 from exorbitantly expensive to exorbitantly expensive. The French nuclear program as a whole has had a huge negative learning curve. The more they've built and learned the more expensive they have become. Sure you can brush of 20% with a lot of money down the drain, but that does not make it in any way economical.

At the end of the day, the cost of reactors built when there was large scale serial production was considerably cheaper than they are now: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030142151... The "negative learning curve" both in France and in the USA happened as the pace of reactor construction slowed. The "negative learning curve" you're referring to is actually the loss of the economies of scale.

Your paper shows a very nearly monotonic increase in costs with no dip at any pont between the peak of construction and when the reactors started during that peak were all finished. It also shows that in the US at least, the negative learning rate was much steeper between the end of the turnkey error and both TMI and the construction peak. It's also not normalised for availability factor or upgrades/reliability retrofits.

You can't just post evidence of the opposite to your claim and then repeat it.

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#204

Post by DrThunder » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 11:02 PM UTC

7952 wrote: post #201

DrThunder wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WOW you're going to use the UK as an example for renewable energy right now??? Have you been paying attention at all? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/05/uk-prepares... https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/uk-wind-solar-builde... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/01/uk-effor... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/21/energy-cris... https://e360.yale.edu/features/africa-europe-s…

The issues ovet winter in the UK were caused by gas supply concerns and low availability of French nuclear power. I am not really sure why you think that is the fault of the renewable industry. But anyway I pointed to the UK because the grid operator has a plan to deliver 100% renewables. But it doesn't need to be reached immediately and may never be reached. It is not a binary thing. The brilliant thing about electr…

You're right, it's not a binary thing. So, stop using legislation to remove fossil fuels from the people that can't afford your renewables, and then turning around and taxing the shit out of those same people to push renewables that can't stay on par with fossil fuels yet.

Re: Georgia nuclear plant begins splitting atoms

#205

Post by DrThunder » Mon, Mar 13, 2023, 11:03 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #123

DrThunder wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not. You might want to look up where that cobalt for batteries comes from as well and how much recycling actually gets done.

In 2023 stationary storage batteries don't use cobalt. Stationary storage batteries are expected to last 25 years. Given that we've only been doing stationary storage batteries for about 5 years, it's not really surprising that they aren't being recycled.

What's your point here? You're only supporting my stance.