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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

cnbc.com

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#201

Post by causi »

olliej wrote: post #17
adampk wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone can drive from Palm Springs to SF with no intervention does that not make it bullshit anymore?

FSD requires you to be 100% in control of the vehicle for the entire drive, and paying full attention to the driving, and also do nothing. This is demonstrably not a task that anyone can do, let alone Joa[n] Average car driver. Highly trained pilots are not expected to do that, and that's when autopilot is being used in a vehicle that can provide significant amounts of time to handle the autopilot going wrong - serio…

Yeah I don't understand the "legitimate" use case. I would imagine people who actually shell out the money get their car onto the interstate then strap a weight to the steering wheel until their exit comes up. Having to watch the road without the stimulation of actively driving is worse than having no assistance at all.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#202

Post by xdavidliu »

belter wrote: post #178
jlv2 wrote: post #154

There really needs to be a distinction between an actual recall (my Model S had one to change the latch on the frunk) and this type of "recall" that is nothing more than an OTA software update.

One can kill people the other not. Guess which one. >> "...The FSD Beta system may cause crashes by allowing the affected vehicles to: “Act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution,…

> One can kill people the other not.

No, that's not correct. Whether it can kill people or not is orthogonal to whether it's a true physical recall of the car or a software update.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#203

Post by buildbot »

screye wrote: post #95
thepasswordis wrote: post #21

It seems like there is a huge disconnect between people who know about FSD from using it and people who know about FSD from things they read on the internet. I have FSD, I use it every single day. I love it. If every car on the road had this the road would be a substantially safer place.

In fact, there is a huge disconnect between people who design similar systems (Vision, safety, self driving, robotics, simulations) and those who use them. The criticism of Tesla is coming from experts, not jealous competitors. The problem with systems where 99% is a failing grade, is that 99% of the time, they work great. The other 1% you die. No one is against FSD or safer tech. They are against Tesla's haphazard 2…

Yep, I used to be in this field back in 2018, and everyone was extremely dismissive of the rest of the industries skepticism

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#204

Post by Veserv »

apnew wrote: post #64

> The FSD Beta system may cause crashes by allowing the affected vehicles to: “act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution,” according to the notice on the website of the National…

It also does not know what one way street, do not enter, road closed, and speed limit signs are. Really, the only signs it appears to know about are stop signs.

As for their QA process, in 2018 they had a braking distance problem on the Model 3. They learned of it, implemented a change that alters the safety critical operation of the brakes, then pushed it to production to all Model 3s without doing any rollout testing in less than a week [1]. So, their QA process is probably: compiles, run a few times on the nearby streets (I am pretty sure they do not own a test track as I have never seen a picture of tricked out Teslas doing testing runs at any of their facilities), ship it.

[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-model-3-get...

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#205

Post by diebeforei485 »

moremetadata wrote: post #148
bhauer wrote: post #35

As posted on the Tesla subreddit [1]: > Remedy: Tesla will release an over-the-air (OTA) software update, free of charge. Owner notification letters are expected to be mailed by April 15, 2023. Owners may contact Tesla customer service at 1-877-798-3752. Tesla's number for this recall is SB-23-00-001. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/113wltl/commen...

Why even bother with a letter? Surely the letter could be displayed on screen like most other tech displays some text of sorts before an update occurs. Are these letters designed to satisfy the legalese types, or is paper still required to make sure tech companies dont make post update changes to the letter contents?

A lot of car owners don't have reliable internet at home and live outside of cell tower coverage (mountainous areas, especially).

Statistically these are not likely to be Tesla owners, but it's about making sure people know about the issue and how to fix it.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#206

Post by panick21_ »

justapassenger wrote: post #151
apnew wrote: post #64

> The FSD Beta system may cause crashes by allowing the affected vehicles to: “act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution,” according to the notice on the website of the National…

> Does anyone have insights on what QA looks like at Tesla for FSD work? Because all of these seem table-stakes before even thinking about releasing the BETA FSD. Tesla is not exactly in love with QA. Especially for FSD. FSD is mainly 2 things: 1. (By far most important) shareholder value creating promise, that's been solved for 6 years according to their CEO. 2. Software engineering research project What FSD is not…

Do you have actual knowlage of Tesla internal QA processes, any kind of source at all?

Based on there presentation, they for sure have a whole load of tests, many built directly from real world situation that the car has to handle. They simulate sensor input based on the simulation and check the car does the right thing.

They very likely have some internal test drivers and before the software goes public it goes to the cars of the engineers.

Those are just some of things we know about.

I have no source on their approach to testing safety critical systems, but we do know that they have a lot of software that has based all test by all the major governments. They are one of the few (or only) car maker fully compliant to a number of standards on automated breaking in the US. We have many real world example of videos where other cars would have killed somebody and the Tesla stopped based on image recognition.

So they do clearly have some idea of how to do this stuff.

So when making these claims I would like to know what they are based on. It might very well be true that their processes are insufficient but I would actual know some real data. Part of what a government could do, is forcing car maker to open their QA processes.

Or the government could (should) have its own open test suit that a car needs to be able to handle, but clearly we are not there yet.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#207

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

pavlov wrote: post #177
james_pm wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to worry about the return trip if it's unlikely that anyone would survive the trip there, right?

”Six days after the radiation-wrecked colonists emerged from the battered Starship, the Emperor of Mars condemned them all to death by suffocation for ‘insufficiently engaging with his tweets’. Historians debate the meaning of this expression found carved in a rock outside the base.”

The settlement communication log will be just a series of "I need people to be even more hardcore" declarations coupled with lists of people thrown out of airlocks.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#208

Post by natch »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #132
adoxyz wrote: post #44

I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. I've had it since day 1, and oh my god. It behaves worse than a drunk teenager. All the updates since, have made it barely better. This needs to be pulled entirely and rethought.

I have a Tesla and have tried FSD several times (month-to-month plan and loaner cars from Tesla). It's comically bad. Fortunately every time I tried it I was paying very close attention so I stopped it from braking at green lights, trying to turn right from a middle lane, halfway lane changes where it snaps back to the original lane unexpectedly, etc. The regular, included autopilot works pretty well as a smarter cru…

You have never tried FSD.

You may have tried FSD beta. Different things entirely.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#209

Post by root_axis »

alfor wrote: post #53
root_axis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FSD is terrible. I have it, it's dangerous. If I had to go 5 miles through city streets I'd sooner trust a human after 3 shots of tequila before I'd trust FSD every time.

Do you have the latest beta? How did it improve in the last 12 months?

Not sure if it's the latest, and nowadays I rarely use it, and when I do it's just to show off to curious friends, but I live in an east coast metro and I've never been able to use FSD for more than 20 minutes without it making a dangerous mistake - 90% of the time it's been a mistake making a left turn, turning into the wrong lane or oncoming traffic after making the left, not correctly respecting the traffic lines or the left turn lights and other very scary situations.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#210

Post by totalhack »

Thanks to the Tesla owners on the front lines risking their lives for the greater good (of Tesla)!

Jokes aside, it's gotta be damn tough to QA a system like this in any sort of way that resembles full coverage. Can't even really define what full test coverage means.

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