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The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

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Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#201

Post by huevosabio »

pirate787 wrote: post #39

In this time-period there has been a large-scale introduction of undocumented workers into the construction labor force. They are a quarter of some construction labor categories. Perhaps using undocumented subcontractors may play a role in lower productivity growth (cheap, unstable, and relatively unskilled labor) or maybe just distorting the statistics. https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/...

This is an unlikely hypothesis.

Most likely explanation is just that we have been burdened with infinite amount regulatory busy work.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#202

Post by renewiltord »

pirate787 wrote: post #39

In this time-period there has been a large-scale introduction of undocumented workers into the construction labor force. They are a quarter of some construction labor categories. Perhaps using undocumented subcontractors may play a role in lower productivity growth (cheap, unstable, and relatively unskilled labor) or maybe just distorting the statistics. https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/...

From the working paper:

> There are several plausible channels for labor measurement difficulties in construction, including a higher than average frequency of employees working irregular hours, contractor labor that may be misclassified by survey respondents, and, especially in more recent decades, labor supplied by undocumented workers.

It then goes on to talk about that in more detail, but I won't copy that in because every time I do, someone goes on with "but what about X?" where X is also in the very next paragraph.

Nothing wrong with coming up with the hypothesis, honestly. But the extraordinary number of responses to your comment that speculate on something that one can immediately find are just so typical of HN comments.

I sometimes see that in software engineering where some engineer will tell me about some library we're using that we have access to source code for: "yeah, I looked at the docs and it's not clear if it does A or B". But...the source code is right there. Why not just use that? At least then if the library is doing it wrong you'll know for sure.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#203

Post by TimPC »

I think you have to find a measure that looks at build times for apples to apples projects. It’s entirely possible more fine-detail work goes into the excessive amount of luxury units we now build and that this time consuming work explains a large portion of the effect. We can also look at regulations that improve safety and see that they slow down labour productivity as well. Not saying we should get rid of those regulations just saying they explain some of the decline.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#204

Post by dieselgate »

hn_go_brrrrr wrote: post #165
javajosh wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>undocumented workers [are responsible for the productivity drop] I am confused by this assertion. If they are undocumented, wouldn't they be excluded in the stats? And if they aren't included in the stats, shouldn't we expect an artificial increase in worker productivity? If there is a 4:1 undocumented to documented ratio, then that 1 documented person will get "credit" for the work of 5 people! Even if 4 of those p…

"Undocumented" is the current preferred euphemism for "illegal immigrant".

Interestingly enough many (with no claims to majority/minority numbers) "illegal"/migrant workers do have "documents" from what I've seen working in agriculture. The documents are sufficient if you don't look too closely or are not the business owner - speaking from my own experience. These may be cases where the workers are paying taxes etc.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#205

Post by NTARelix »

SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #125
pirate787 wrote: post #39

In this time-period there has been a large-scale introduction of undocumented workers into the construction labor force. They are a quarter of some construction labor categories. Perhaps using undocumented subcontractors may play a role in lower productivity growth (cheap, unstable, and relatively unskilled labor) or maybe just distorting the statistics. https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/...

What’s wild is that the entire concept, as we know it, of “undocumented workers” only existed for the past ~22 years.

I have memories of illegal immigrant workers from longer than 22 years ago and the USA has had immigration laws for much longer than 22 years. Have I misunderstood your statement?

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#206

Post by CodeWriter23 »

pixl97 wrote: post #184
nemo44x wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can: - Vinyl windows compared to old growth wood windows from 100 years ago. - Vinyl siding compared to cedar shakes. - Extremely poor wood quality in the lower end 2x4 and 2x6 lumber. - Sheathing that's essentially cardboard in really cheap builds. - Flooring is sad today in cheap to moderate homes. Thing is there were really badly built homes 100 years ago and they just aren't standing any longer. We do get a but…

Vinyl windows/sealed windows are 400% better. Old windows suck. Cedar shakes are a fire hazard, and most people use cement board rather than vinyl. You can't have everyone use virgin forest wood. And with that said especially in non load bearing walls why use your best wood, it's just a waste. You get far more strength by use of modern fastners and straps.

> Vinyl windows/sealed windows are 400% better

Until the sun or termite-treating the home degrades the vinyl.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#207

Post by renewiltord »

SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #125
pirate787 wrote: post #39

In this time-period there has been a large-scale introduction of undocumented workers into the construction labor force. They are a quarter of some construction labor categories. Perhaps using undocumented subcontractors may play a role in lower productivity growth (cheap, unstable, and relatively unskilled labor) or maybe just distorting the statistics. https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/...

What’s wild is that the entire concept, as we know it, of “undocumented workers” only existed for the past ~22 years.

Here are Reagan and H.W. debating whether "children of illegal aliens should be allowed to use schools" https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=YsmgPp_nlok

This is from 43 years ago.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#209

Post by notch656c »

rtkwe wrote: post #198
notch656c wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that happen? For 700k I could hire 2 skilled persons and 5 undocumented immigrants to work an entire year. How long does it take to raise a house?

It's not just labor in that cost there's materials to consider too.

Valid point. I looked up average materials cost for a 2000 sq ft house and it was estimated at $120k. Materials costs vary much less across the country than land and labor.

For 580k I could hire 2 skilled men and 3 undocumented immigrants for a year.

Something isn't right.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#210

Post by curiousllama »

markus_zhang wrote: post #78
lotsofpulp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example of inferior material?

Once a contractor told me my apartment building, which was built in 1939, has very good load bearing walls that "they don't do nowadays". I do think that it could be more of "nowadays we can use lighter material to do the same job" angle. I also vosited quite a few apartments where they used thinner material and sound proofing is not exactly great.

Couldn’t this just be survivorship bias? We already locked down all the cheap crap from the 60s. It’s only the rare, well-built buildings that are still around.

We’re building more cheap crap, sure, but also a few rare, well-built buildings.

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