Live data from Hacker News

An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

smithsonianmag.com

201–207 of 207 posts

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#201
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can appear so confident while pontificating from a position of profound and self-professed ignorance. You admit you haven't read the book, and yet somehow you know that its content is unrelated to whether or not behavior is "right" or "good". You are wrong. Evolved behavior has everything to do with it. There is no behavior other than "evolved behavior". Without that, you can't…

Statements like "you are wrong" indicate more confidence to me than statements like "I believe." I may well be wrong about the book's nature. My assessment was based on the Wiki article you linked and my study of moral philosophy, epistemology, and science as a methodology for the past several years. Are you familiar with the is-ought problem? If so, what do you make of it? How does that fit with your understanding o…

> Statements like "you are wrong" indicate more confidence to me than statements like "I believe."

Well, yeah, but my confidence is grounded in knowledge because I've actually read the book.

(Also, you made two statements. The one I was criticizing was not qualified by "I believe" but rather simply stated as a bald fact.)

> Are you familiar with the is-ought problem?

Yes.

> If so, what do you make of it? How does that fit with your understanding of evolution as creating moral good?

You are moving the goal posts. The statement that you made which I was criticizing was:

> I believe that book addresses how certain behaviors may have evolved. That is UNRELATED to whether those behaviors are in an abstract sense "right" or "good". [Emphasis added]

So I did not say that evolution "created moral good". What I said was that the claim that "evolution is unrelated to whether behaviors are in an abstract sense 'right' or 'good'" is wrong, i.e. evolution is related to whether behaviors are in an abstract sense 'right' or 'good'. But I did not say how it is related. If you want to know that you will need to read the book.

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#202
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolutionary arguments allow for any moral behavior that improves your survival chance, which is why it isn’t taken very seriously.

No, that's not true. You need to read "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. Evolution produces behavior that improves the reproductive fitness of your genes , not you . And that turns out to be a very significant constraint.

That’s just the ‘there are no morals, just genes’ type of argument. Which assumes no free will (which is itself a supernatural concept under most definitions).

In the end this kind of comes down to a belief or not in free will, which is a faith based discussion since we can never ethically prove whether we have free will or not being our own observer.

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#203
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's not true. You need to read "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. Evolution produces behavior that improves the reproductive fitness of your genes , not you . And that turns out to be a very significant constraint.

That’s just the ‘there are no morals, just genes’ type of argument. Which assumes no free will (which is itself a supernatural concept under most definitions). In the end this kind of comes down to a belief or not in free will, which is a faith based discussion since we can never ethically prove whether we have free will or not being our own observer.

I'm not suggesting you read TSG because of its position on morality but because of its explication of what evolution optimizes for. TSG does address the question of morality, specifically how altruism can evolve, but Axelrod gives a much more complete and up-to-date account.

> In the end this kind of comes down to a belief or not in free will, which is a faith based discussion

No, it doesn't, and no it isn't. The illusion of free will is enough, i.e. it suffices that we lack a complete understanding of our own brains.

You should read this:

https://blog.rongarret.info/2018/01/a-multilogue-on-free-wil...

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#204
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My pet theory is that the Nephilim are a folk memory of the last Neanderthals.

Aren’t Neanderthals much shorter than humans?

They were, but also stronger, IIRC.

I figured "giant" could be a metaphor, after all it's in a collection of traditions of pastoralists, wherein God rejects the agriculturalist's offering, who then kills his sheep herding brother.

Then the farmer builds the first city, and his descendents are the first blacksmith, the first musician, the first dancer (debateably), and the first animal farmer - who also often conflicted with semi-nomadic herders.

Great metaphor for the Iron Age equivalent of the Range Wars.

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My pet theory is that the Nephilim are a folk memory of the last Neanderthals.

Could Neanderthals be described as "heroes of old, men of renown"?

In my head canon, some Neanderthal managed to find acceptance in Homo sapiens societies through prodigious feats of strength or bravery. We know we interbred (although IIRC, DNA evidence suggests that mainly Neanderthal male and Homo sapiens female births were viable)

And IIRC, Neanderthal were far stronger than us.

Mind you, could be that they're where folk memory of dwarves arises, short, strong, like living underground.

Maybe elves were Homo floriensis?

I love speculating like this because it's entirely unprovable, much like evolutionary psychology.

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#206
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This got me thinking: what exactly defines a forgery here? Ancient Jewish texts were almost certainly based on previous oral tradition and underwent all sorts of changes over the years before they came to be written down as the texts we know today, and there were probably different versions of the written texts too – the non-canonical ones just got mostly lost as they didn't get copied so much (or at all). So is a te…

Interesting point. There's a whole category of writings called pseudepigrapha because scholars generally agree that they're not written by the people they're claimed to have been written by. If I wrote a play now and sold it to people as a lost play of Shakespeare, it would be considered a forgery. But you don't use the term usually if someone write a religious text and claims it came from a prophet from 400 years ea…

> The ending of the gospel of Mark, for instance, is generally thought to have been a later addition, and at least some prominent scholars think the nativity story in Luke is. But again, we don't use the term "forgery."

I think there are some good reasons why we don't call them "forgeries".

One is that people in the ancient world had different understandings of authorship from what people do today. Today, if you are copying a text written by someone else, either you copy it verbatim, or you very clearly mark your changes, so no one mistakenly thinks they were the work of the original author. In ancient times, people didn't necessarily think there was anything wrong with "improving" a text while copying it, and not failing to note the changes.

Nowadays, it sometimes happens that an author dies with a work unfinished, and a close friend or colleague is called upon to finish it off. However, we'll make it very explicit that's what going on, and to fail to do so is seen as unethical. In the ancient world, it was quite common for students to add stuff to texts written by their late teachers, based on their oral recollections of what the teacher said – or even just their opinions on what the teacher would have said – and few thought it necessary to explicitly note that they were doing it.

As these particular texts came to be seen as holy, intentionally changing them began to be seen as sinful. However, there was likely a lengthy period – possibly measured in decades – between the first drafts, and when they came to be seen as too holy to intentionally alter any further.

Finally, "forgery" generally implies something done to be intentionally deceptive, and we don't have any evidence that the authors of these texts were intentionally deceiving anyone. Even if they wrote falsehoods, for all we know, they honestly-yet-mistakenly believed they were true.

> For a more recent example, you don't see the term used to describe The Book of Mormon, which is purported to have been written two millennia before non-Mormons think it was written.

Part of the problem with calling it a "forgery", is that could be interpreted as making an assumption about Joseph Smith's psychology – that he was a conscious charlatan. While non-Mormons aren't going to believe he was a genuine prophet, genuine prophet and conscious charlatan aren't the only two options – is it possible that he was deluded? That he honestly, however falsely, believed that God was revealing stuff to him? Even if he was "making stuff up", was he consciously aware he was doing it, or was it unconscious creativity, which he subjectively experienced as coming from outside of himself, even though in truth it didn't? One of the reasons why scholars don't call it a "forgery", is it allows them to avoid that debate except when they specifically want to delve into it.

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a protestant I've certainly seen some of the deuterocanonical books in non-Catholic study Bibles. Not the same thing really as Enoch, which I think is a little bit more controversial.

We know much more Jewish and Christian religious literature from antiquity than found its way into the bible. The nomenclature for it is a bit confusing. There are the "apocrypha" of the "Old Testament" in the narrow sense, which are those parts nowadays excluded by the Protestants. And then there are the "apocrypha" in a wider sense, which is the literature that bears a certain generic resemblance to biblical writin…

> There are the "apocrypha" of the "Old Testament" in the narrow sense, which are those parts nowadays excluded by the Protestants.

Given the pejorative connotations of "apocrypha", Catholics don't accept that term for the books in their OT canon which are rejected by Jews and Protestants – they say the appropriate term is "deuterocanon" ("second canon"). Catholics do use the term "apocrypha" for books of similar antiquity (such as Enoch) which ended up being rejected from the Catholic canon. Many Protestants prefer to call those later books "pseudepigrapha", to avoid confusion with the books of the Protestant apocrypha / Catholic deuterocanon; however, in the strictest sense of the term, that's not entirely correct, since "pseudepigrapha" literally refers to false claims of authorship, and while most of these texts do make such false claims, some of them are instead anonymous.

Post reply on HN