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Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

#201

Post by defrost »

midoridensha wrote: post #200
defrost wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nice that we can agree that this come down to a Euro-centric judgement as to what constitutes "civilisation". If it's a matter of long establish trade routes, borders, territory, stone housing, multi generational aqua culture infrastructure, agriculture, oral transmission of history, etc. then yes, civilised. If it's a case of a bunch of euro colonisers going "Yeah, Nuh" then no, not civilised.

So you think that you, personally, should be able to decide the proper definitions of words?

Clearly not.

Re: Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

#202

Post by Cupertino95014 »

RobotToaster wrote: post #94
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Compare it to European attitudes Yeah... Can we swap? Or like find a middle ground? Here in slovenia, we have socialist buildings from 1970s that someone decided to culturally protect, and the owners cannot renew the leaking facade and add insulation, because the outside has to stay the same, and puting insulation on the inside would reduce the inside space and make walkways and doors too narrow to pass (or carry a…

It's important to preserve modernist and brutalist architecture, so I can sort of see their point. I'm surprised there isn't another option in that specific case though (Can they not just add doors to the stairwell? Or do they oppose that too?) Too much brutalist architecture is being covered in tacky "neo-classical" plaster facades.

> It's important to preserve modernist and brutalist architecture

Not really. Brutalism was a mistake, and one building is enough to remind us what it was. Maybe a scale model in a museum is enough.

Re: Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

#203

Post by midoridensha »

defrost wrote: post #201
midoridensha wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think that you, personally, should be able to decide the proper definitions of words?

Clearly not.

Well that's exactly what you seem to be advocating.

Re: Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

#204

Post by defrost »

midoridensha wrote: post #203
defrost wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly not.

Well that's exactly what you seem to be advocating.

Not at all, you might like to reread and perhaps identify the point at which I assert that I "personally, should be able to decide the proper definition" of "civilised".

I merely pointed out that if one adopts a Euro-centric definition them, indeed, Australian Aboriginals are not civilised.

This is historically what happened when the English declared Terra Nullus - a concept that was later overturned.

If you're unsure of how to reason forward and contrast varying axioms and definitions then this HN thread might of some interest and shed some insight:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34127524

Enjoy!

Re: Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

#205

Post by DocTomoe »

zebracanevra wrote: post #85
denkmoon wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have the same issues with heritage buildings in Australia too, there's no silver bullet.

And a lot of those buildings just happen to accidentally burn down, such as the White Bay Hotel in Sydney. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Bay_Hotel

The solution to that is simple: Enforce an exact reconstruction to be paid by the owner in case of destruction of the original for protected-status buildings. That's usually more expensive than keeping the old building viable.

Re: Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

#206

Post by SturgeonsLaw »

yawnxyz wrote: post #181
kevinkeller wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because of a sense of ownership and belonging (or lack thereof). People who made the art in Lascaux are, in a distant sense, ancestors of the present-day French. Most of Australia is of British ancestry, transplanted in the past few hundred years. The majority of them, including their government, obviously don't consider the Aboriginal heritage as their own.

They get really mad at you when you tell them their acknowledgment of land / country to the Gadigal / other peoples is just a way to pay lip service and not actually do what’s required. If they really actually cared, they would have protected these sites.

It absolutely is just lip service. So was Rudd's apology, milestone that it was.

"We acknowledge we're on stolen land"

"Are you gonna give it back?"

"Nah"

Imagine if I pinched my neighbour's TV, plugged it in and said "I acknowledge the traditional owner of this television" before switching it on. Wonder if he'd be cool with it.

Re: Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

#207

Post by [deleted] »

oluwie wrote: post #8

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion but I don't really think this is THAT big of a deal. Yea, I know the art is old and all that and it really is unfortunate but its also the nature for all things to change. Maybe in another 30k years, we'll be looking at the defacement as an amazing piece of art that tells the story of the current social climate at this point in time, or something along those lines.

[deleted]

Re: Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

#208

Post by yowlingcat »

oluwie wrote: post #8

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion but I don't really think this is THAT big of a deal. Yea, I know the art is old and all that and it really is unfortunate but its also the nature for all things to change. Maybe in another 30k years, we'll be looking at the defacement as an amazing piece of art that tells the story of the current social climate at this point in time, or something along those lines.

Suppose I dug up your grandmother's tombstone and destroyed it with a sledgehammer then proceeded to urinate on it. Then I told you that I don't really think it is that big of a deal, that your grandmother is old and all that but it really is unfortunate for all things to change. Perhaps I even said that that you should look at my urination as a defacement of your grandmother's tombstone as an amazing piece of art that tells the story of the current social climate at this point in time.

Never minding the fact that this is your grandmother we're talking about, can you think of any other reasons why this would be wrong? Can you think of any historical reasons why a 30k old artifact of visual communication might be noteworthy to preserve?

Re: Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

#209

Post by defrost »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #206
yawnxyz wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get really mad at you when you tell them their acknowledgment of land / country to the Gadigal / other peoples is just a way to pay lip service and not actually do what’s required. If they really actually cared, they would have protected these sites.

It absolutely is just lip service. So was Rudd's apology, milestone that it was. "We acknowledge we're on stolen land" "Are you gonna give it back?" "Nah" Imagine if I pinched my neighbour's TV, plugged it in and said "I acknowledge the traditional owner of this television" before switching it on. Wonder if he'd be cool with it.

I'm a fan of the frank honesty of Uncle Jack Charles:

> His criminal life saw him break into many homes in the "posher districts of Melbourne" - a deliberate choice, he says: "I robbed as rent collection for stolen Aboriginal land!"

> "Those mansions were on my mother's land, but I'm sure if I told the judge I was a rent collector, not a robber, I'd have been given another two years on my sentence."

( Bastardry (2008) is a funny and moving biographical documentry )

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-48702542

Re: Vandals destroy 30k-year-old indigenous cave drawings in Australia

#210

Post by remote_phone »

slim wrote: post #195
remote_phone wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t have very much evidence of ancient human art work around the world. Each one of them is precious. To make it morally equivalent to graffiti is ridiculous.

is it more precious than one human life ?

It’s definitely more precious than the life of a scumbag that spent considerable effort getting through security measures just to destroy this thing.
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