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3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

reuters.com

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Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#201

Post by fghjkewur »

runnerup wrote: post #46
DoreenMichele wrote: post #36

3M has been facing a raft of litigation that has prompted the move Generally speaking, toxic substances are only "cheap" due to externalizing many of the costs involved, like increased healthcare costs and lost productivity. If you do a thorough analysis of the costs of using such chemicals, they aren't cheap at all. Maybe someday humans will get that.

I always thought that if our universe is actually a simulation, it's one of countless simulations trying to determine a solution to the Tragedy of the Commons. I suspect it's one of the hardest problems to solve in any universe.

the funny thing about your comment is that it is only a hard problem because you were fooled on the premise.

the term itself was a fake argument against the commons, in favour of privatization of commons. every single word of the argument today is known to have been a falacy.

so the answer to the tragedy of the commons is to not believe in it. property is the real issue. but even thinking that way will offend your sensibilities.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#202

Post by Faark »

jmathai wrote: post #38
rtpg wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this argument not apply to everything? The counterfactual (where 3M continues to produce these) is ... obviously bad? Producing materials that are bad for the environment and human health! Now less is produced, at least in the short term. An example where your argument doesn't play out like you say: many chemicals manufacturers decided to no longer sell chemicals that would be used for administering the deat…

The benefit Is true of all investments. The payoffs are down the road. In this case, the environment and health will reap the benefits once 3M brings alternatives to market that can compete with the current “bad” options.

The benefits could be way more immediate. Less supply might drive the price up, leading to less usage.

3M killing production and other signs of the product not having a future can drive away investments into competing suppliers.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#203

Post by quickthrower2 »

2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #200
quickthrower2 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if we are "beyond the basics of evolution and selfish genes" now in terms of human intelligence, technology, society and soon: AI. For example once a species can edit it's own genes, you get to a point where maybe the genes "competing" and "being selfish" becomes meaningless, and some other defining "replication force" takes over as the dominate shaping of future life. We might get to "the selfish data"? Gen…

Narh, when it comes to breeding, we humans tend to be quite predicable. Outliers definitely exist, but they generally don't procreate as much as people who just feel the urge and go for it. In order to shape evolution you'd need to make what would essentially begin as an edge case and make sure it's such an advantage that it reduces the likelyhood of others having more children than you.

True, and this is why ants and cockroaches are more “evolved“ than humans. (although is it the being or the gene?) But humans can conceive bigger goals: we could genetically engineer new beings, and replace natural gestation with something else. These are untenable ideas but in 100 yrs ethics might change and the temptation to change how we and things evolve would be there.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#204

Post by Reason077 »

iamacyborg wrote: post #155
Gud wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tap water is vastly different depending on where it is sourced. In my experience, most countries have pretty bad tap water.

I still think about how good Vancouver tap water is compared to the stuff we get in London.

London tap water varies a lot in different parts of London. When I used to live in North-West London it was very hard (ie: full of minerals) so you'd constantly be cleaning the limescale gunk out of your shower, off your taps, etc. And I also remember it smelling noticeably "chlorinated" at times. Now I live in East London (E14) and it seems much softer - we get a bit of limescale but nothing like it was at my old place, and no pool-water smells.

But anyway, I think anywhere in London, so long as you run it through a filter (ie: Brita filter) and chill it, it tastes more or less as good as any bottled water.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#205

Post by 2000UltraDeluxe »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #203
2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Narh, when it comes to breeding, we humans tend to be quite predicable. Outliers definitely exist, but they generally don't procreate as much as people who just feel the urge and go for it. In order to shape evolution you'd need to make what would essentially begin as an edge case and make sure it's such an advantage that it reduces the likelyhood of others having more children than you.

True, and this is why ants and cockroaches are more “evolved“ than humans. (although is it the being or the gene?) But humans can conceive bigger goals: we could genetically engineer new beings, and replace natural gestation with something else. These are untenable ideas but in 100 yrs ethics might change and the temptation to change how we and things evolve would be there.

Absolutely, hence the remark about totalitarian states; such ideas aren't compatible with currently mainstream views.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#206

Post by atombender »

bushbaba wrote: post #179
smilekzs wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, there's always a metallic residual taste in my water whenever I use a stainless steel bottle. Got tired and returned to using normal mugs.

Many of the metal water bottles come with a plastic liner to avoid the metallic taste

Some also come with a non-stick (Teflon-type) coating. Zojirushi makes incredibly nice vacuum-insulated bottle [1] that unfortunately has a non-stick liner. The inside of the bottle is super easy to clean, but the chemicals used in the manufacturing are awful.

[1] https://www.zojirushi.com.hk/enproductsview.php?oid=6&tid=17...

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#207

Post by jquast »

I hope this means my dentist will stop giving me free samples of Oral-B dental floss that contains forever chemicals, as recently as last month, I wanted to say something about what kind of doctor suggests putting PFAS products in our mouths but I didn’t want to be a Wikipedia patient https://www.classaction.org/news/oral-b-glide-dental-floss-l...

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#208

Post by wjnc »

SoftTalker wrote: post #100
wjnc wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dehydration is more of a risk to you than the environmental risks you marginally save on others. Still I applaud the effort since the economists view is too restricted. Get a stainless steel container and hydrate for a lifetime.

Stainless steel containers are often lined with plastic, since people don't like the metallic taste that the steel imparts.

Do you know if that metallic taste is considered (in-)healthy? I have no clue and actually like that taste and must admit that in the steel for everything department I’m following the trends as well (steel for cooking - no PFAS; steel for drink containers - no plastics).

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#209

Post by wjnc »

jraby3 wrote: post #121
wjnc wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dehydration is more of a risk to you than the environmental risks you marginally save on others. Still I applaud the effort since the economists view is too restricted. Get a stainless steel container and hydrate for a lifetime.

The risks of dehydration are way overstated imo. And I live in a warm weather country. Whole being thirsty isn’t optimal the actual risk of something serious happening is negligible. Especially since I monitor my urine color and other signs. It’s more convenience and the habit of convenience we’re all so used to these days.

The thing is that if you monitor your urine color (and act upon it) you are already managing hydration?

My mother in law was hospitalized twice for dehydration. She is mindful of it and still some days she doesn’t drink enough. Drinking is hard for her as other commenters mention here too. After that I just started drinking an extra liter of tea by just carrying the bottle around. Even the extra peeing stopped after a few weeks.

Re: 3M to end 'forever chemicals' output

#210

Post by mensetmanusman »

About a quarter of new pharmaceuticals are PFAS, and we can’t make modern chips, autos, or airplanes without them. Once politicians learn that the half life for “forever” chemicals varies by 7 orders of magnitude, we will have more nuance about the issue.
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