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The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

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Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#201

Post by cryptonector »

mrzool wrote: post #188
cryptonector wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this. Though I prefer the X11 compose sequence business where you type 'a to get á and so on. X11 compose sequences are a lot more intuitive than the Windows U.S. international keyboard because there's no ambiguities, so, for example, a cedille is just ,c whereas in the Windows U.S. international keyboard layout it's 'c -- X11 for the win here, as the latter is super a) counter-intuitive and b) conflicts with ć…

> Though I prefer the X11 compose sequence business where you type 'a to get á and so on. X11 compose sequences are a lot more intuitive than the Windows U.S. international keyboard because there's no ambiguities, so, for example, a cedille is just ,c whereas in the Windows U.S. international keyboard layout it's 'c That sounds pretty good indeed. Any idea how could I go about setting this up under macOS? > Also, if…

> Any idea how could I go about setting this up under macOS?

Sorry, no idea, but I'd expect it to be possible on OS X. And I really want this for Windows, too, as I have to use it.

> I have indeed a couple of little, weird problems when working in the terminal. That's inconvenient but still beats switching between 3 layouts 50 times a day.

Oof, I can't get used to having to type '' to make one ', "" to make one ", `` to make one `, in the shell, in $EDITOR, etc. It's too painful. So I switch layouts as needed, and I hate it. Compose keys would be so much better!

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#202

Post by cryptonector »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #185
cryptonector wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not "rules", just this rule. It has to do with typographic considerations that apply to old typesetting technologies that are no longer in use. > Why should we change language to appease lazy software developers? It's been done. For example, in Spanish it is no longer the rule that "ch" and "ll" sort as if they were distinct letters (this change was made in 2010) precisely because that was such a difficult rule to im…

In contrast, the Hungarian "cs", "dz", "dzs", "gy", "ny", "sz", "ty", and "zs" all remain distinct, as do their accented vowels. Polish is hybrid, considering digraphs as being 'composed' of single letters (i.e. 'sz' = 's+z'), rather than being distinct, but the accented characters are considered distinct from their unaccented cousins. This problem has primarily come about because the Catholic church enforced the lat…

Indeed, there's no reason for 'ch' and 'll' to have been distinct digraphs in Spanish and ñ not to have been 'gn' as in other Romance languages. I'm not familiar with the whys of that.

I didn't know that Hungarian had a similar issue.

> Why should traditions change just because it's a bit more difficult to do things the 'old way'? why do we still bother with capital letters at the beginning of sentences? or speling things with two leters when one wil do, or riting silent leters wen you cant tell the difrens? & i dont think we need apostrofees n e more.

I distinguish typographic and orthographic rules. The non-breaking, thin space before punctuation rule is typographic and outdated (i.e., motivated by outdated typographic technology).

I do want some orthographic rules reformed too, but I'm more interested in the ones that are just hard. In particular I'm interested in collation reform because we do often have to collate multi-language text items but with one collation -this is especially true in databases- so having collations for Latin-script-using languages be similar is rather useful. This is also true given that I'm not going to be switching locales when I switch languages -- I speak, read, and write multiple languages, but I never ever change locales.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#203

Post by cryptonector »

TeeMassive wrote: post #195
cryptonector wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that this is totally normal for CJK users, where you really want to type in a syllabic or phonetic or similar system and get drop-down selection menus for Chinese/Kanji characters to replace your writing with. Doing that for emoji is basically the same thing for CJK users. For Latin script users, however, this is very disruptive.

I dabbled in Japanese; you are not comparing the same thing.

It's not that different.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#205

Post by TeeMassive »

cryptonector wrote: post #203
TeeMassive wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dabbled in Japanese; you are not comparing the same thing.

It's not that different.

It is because it is required to produce the wanted characters and is usually implemented by the OS / browser, not at the final application level which interferes with this process.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#206

Post by gnubison »

cryptonector wrote: post #161
gnubison wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unicode has language tags that you can embed in documents, those are deprecated and they were never well supported, Huh? MDN doesn’t mention this … why are they deprecated?

Yes, [sadly] deprecated by the Unicode Consortium in Unicode 5.2, and by the IETF in RFC 6082. Nor have they be undeprecated since them (see https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode15.0.0/ch05.pdf#G115... ). IMO we should have tried harder to make Unicode language tags useful and used. But it didn't happen, so they're a thing of the past. Of course, they're still there, and one could attempt to resurrect them, but mo…

Oh, “tag” made my brain parse as HTML tags. TIL

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#207

Post by tonnydourado »

We have some templates for gitlab issues at work, and it always bothered me that all the colons had a space before it. Both because it triggers the same annoying emoji feature, and also because it looks weird to me. Now it all makes sense: although the templates are in English, they have been authored by a French person, so the rule just bled into English writing.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#208

Post by Normille »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #178
Normille wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A modern solution is simply to have non-breaking space easily accessible in your keyboard layout An even better solution would be --for grown up people who have progressed beyond cave-painting and want to communicate using, you know, actual words-- to be able to disable emojis completely. Fucking moronic shite that they are. I've seen people on Twatter and FB have entire conversations in bloody emojis. Talk about re…

I guess you only speak monotonically and avoid interpreting pitch, pauses, and physical cues in conversation as well, since those would be archaic, right?

smiley face. crying face. row of hearts in different colours. strange yellow thing that might be a banana or an arm flexing its bicep. sports trophy. winking face.

My god! --you're right. This is so much better and clearer than using those boring old fashioned words.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#209

Post by cryptonector »

TeeMassive wrote: post #205
cryptonector wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that different.

It is because it is required to produce the wanted characters and is usually implemented by the OS / browser, not at the final application level which interferes with this process.

The UX is still that you get a drop-down picker. What component of the system implements that seems of little importance to users unless that becomes obvious (each app doing it differently, though obviously that happens).

I expect that the emoji picker will become part of the OS eventually. Heck, Windows has one that you have to call up explicitly (with -.), iOS has an emoji "keyboard" (input mode), etc, so we're headed in that direction.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#210

Post by xboxnolifes »

Normille wrote: post #208
xboxnolifes wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you only speak monotonically and avoid interpreting pitch, pauses, and physical cues in conversation as well, since those would be archaic, right?

smiley face. crying face. row of hearts in different colours. strange yellow thing that might be a banana or an arm flexing its bicep. sports trophy. winking face. My god! --you're right. This is so much better and clearer than using those boring old fashioned words.

Emotions aren't clear either, but there are certain societal expectations to read and respond to them appropriately.
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