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Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

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Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#201

Post by nyuszika7h »

ranger_danger wrote: post #135
cmeacham98 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is possible to encourage 2FA but allow to opt out. You might be surprised to learn that this is how it works for Google accounts: it is default-on but you can turn it off. > If they at least would allow for a sufficient number of options. Like paper-tan (even self printed), yubikey or similar, second email address, an authenticator, ... but even big companies often only require a phone number. You might be even…

Google only allows non-U2F 2FA methods (like TOTP) to be enabled AFTER enabling a hardware U2F device. And signing up without a working mobile number is impossible. Anyone who says that's not true hasn't actually tried in the last several years.

I definitely had TOTP before I had U2F. I think you mean after enabling SMS 2FA, not U2F.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#202

Post by Bakary »

upsidesinclude wrote: post #165
Bakary wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is missing the forest for the trees. Of course we'd be more emotionally involved if it was someone we knew, that's not hypocritical. Most people aren't against fixing societal problems, either. As it stands, homelessness is definitely something that affects a ton of people so it definitely is our problem as long as we are city dwellers. The problem here is that misapplied empathy can lead to terrible decisions.…

I would argue yours is a poor point of comparison and you have missed the forest. google isn't requiring specific 2FA data, like address, because they are stalwart guardians of data. They are harvesting data because that is their business. The homeless don't have enough data to be of value to an entity like goolge

If Google were to shrivel up and dissolve, I would not mind at all. But what's currently happening is that a metric ton of people are using their free email service and won't stop doing so any time soon, and so they had an incentive to hand-hold and force along 2FA that coincides with some form of public utility: fewer security breaks and financial ruin for massive globs of vulnerable, tech-illiterate people.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#203

Post by anotherman554 »

arbuge wrote: post #181

You lose your entire Google account if you lose your 2FA device or number (assuming it's a phone number), for any reason. Even if your Google account is set up with a non-Google email address which you still have access to, and you still know the correct password. And there's nobody you can reach at Google about it, no appeals process, nothing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33098261

That link involves someone with no backup email address connected to their google account for recovery purposes, for what it's worth.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#204

Post by blfr »

upsidesinclude wrote: post #165
Bakary wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is missing the forest for the trees. Of course we'd be more emotionally involved if it was someone we knew, that's not hypocritical. Most people aren't against fixing societal problems, either. As it stands, homelessness is definitely something that affects a ton of people so it definitely is our problem as long as we are city dwellers. The problem here is that misapplied empathy can lead to terrible decisions.…

I would argue yours is a poor point of comparison and you have missed the forest. google isn't requiring specific 2FA data, like address, because they are stalwart guardians of data. They are harvesting data because that is their business. The homeless don't have enough data to be of value to an entity like goolge

Google demands 2FA because popped accounts are used to abuse their services.

Homeless people don't have enough of anything to be an attractive target for advertisers.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#205

Post by Eisenstein »

md_ wrote: post #127
valenterry wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you recently try to create a gmail account? If not, I suggest you try it right now. Maybe you will be surprised. Hint: it is still possible to create a gmail account without phone number, but it has become quite tricky to do so.

Oddly, I suspect if Google provided no free accounts at all--if you had to give a credit card and pay $5 to sign up--nobody would be complaining about this. Which leads me back to the point made elsewhere in this thread: we have too high an expectation for what private companies can or should do, because they have taken the place in our minds if government. And our expectations for what government can or should do ar…

> Oddly, I suspect if Google provided no free accounts at all--if you had to give a credit card and pay $5 to sign up--nobody would be complaining about this.

That is like saying 'if the DMV didn't offer IDs to people, no one would complain about not being able to get an ID'.

The fact of the matter is that email is 'de facto' online ID, and gmail has positioned itself into this role. They are now a societal need, not a luxury. They need to be regulated.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#206

Post by valenterry »

md_ wrote: post #127
valenterry wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you recently try to create a gmail account? If not, I suggest you try it right now. Maybe you will be surprised. Hint: it is still possible to create a gmail account without phone number, but it has become quite tricky to do so.

Oddly, I suspect if Google provided no free accounts at all--if you had to give a credit card and pay $5 to sign up--nobody would be complaining about this. Which leads me back to the point made elsewhere in this thread: we have too high an expectation for what private companies can or should do, because they have taken the place in our minds if government. And our expectations for what government can or should do ar…

I can assure you that this suspection is wrong, at least about me.

I've personally bought/subscribed to various companies both personally and professionally. Just recently (a couple of weeks ago) I evaluated a couple of mailproviders. I discarded all of those that enforced 2FA with a phone-number.

For instance mailgun. At least the support helped me:

> Hello XXX, > > Thanks for bringing this to our attention. > > At this time, I have successfully activated your account so that it is now fully operational and you are all set! You may need to log out, then back in, to reflect this change. Also, your users can indeed utilize Google Auth without using a phone number. > > Please reach back out if any other questions arise. > > Regards, > XXX | Mailgun by Sinch

Others weren't as flexible. E.g. Sendgrind:

> Hello, > > Thanks for reaching out to Twilio SendGrid Support and for your interest in our products. My name is XXX and I’ll be more than happy to assist you in this matter. > > I am sorry for the inconvenience caused by the 2 Factor Authentication process, but this is mandatory for all accounts, as a security feature. > The only options available are to setup 2FA through Authy: to receive an SMS code or use the Authy app, which you can download here. > > I apologise for the inconvenience caused by the fact that we do not have any other options available at the time. > > Please do let me know if you have any additional questions in regards to this matter and I will be more than happy to further assist. > > Kind Regards, > > XXX | Technical Support Engineer Twilio-Sendgrid

Forcing me to use your own homegrown authenticator or a phone number? No thank you.

In the end I decided for a provider that offers 2FA but offers multiple options and doesn't enforce it.

Doesn't matter if I pay or not, really.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#208

Post by judge2020 »

paganel wrote: post #116
dmix wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, reducing standards for everyone in an attempt to help a small minority is also a growing trend in the west. Schools dumbing down so everyone gets A’s type of top level decision making. Sometimes you have to make hard choices where some people get burned because the alternatives are worse. That doesn’t mean you don’t care.

> to help a small minority In this case the people asking for 2FA are the "small minority", and the rest of us have to suffer through 2FA-authentication hell because of them.

> In this case the people asking for 2FA are the "small minority", and the rest of us have to suffer through 2FA-authentication hell because of them.

How many people don't like 2fa because they don't know about all the times it's saved them from total account takeover?

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#209

Post by jakelazaroff »

warent wrote: post #198
peatmoss wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually giving homes to the homeless would probably be cheaper than whatever we are doing now, even taking into account the mental illness and drug-abuse problems that factor into this. This point is worth reiterating. Homelessness can be solved by providing housing. Yes, homelessness is a complex multi-faceted problem, but the first order solution to the problem is to provide housing. Homelessness is a problem wi…

Unfortunately it's more complicated than this. There have been nonprofit organizations and government initiatives to give homeless people space in unoccupied hotels for example. What ends up happening is they generally just destroy the living space in a variety of ways. It's because the majority of homelessness is an issue of mental health. In the USA, there are pretty much zero mental health resources for people in…

The problem is multifaceted. And homeless people are not a monolith. There are large cohorts for whom simply receiving a home would make life significantly easier.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#210

Post by s1artibartfast »

md_ wrote: post #94
lotsofpulp wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Still, it's not in your interest, it's in theirs. Which is okay, because it is a business. If society wants homeless people to have reliable access to email without having SMS 2FA or whatever requirements a business requires, then society should elect a government to provide it as a utility. There is no reason to expect or want businesses to pick up the slack for the government not providing adequate safety nets. L…

I think this is a better answer than it first appears. Initiatives at for profit corporations will always exist within some business constraints, shareholder obligations, and so forth. It would be very reasonable for governments to provide tax-supported digital services. I could easily imagine that spending a few dollars per year to provide the homeless with basic digital services would pay off simply in easing admin…

>But we don't do it, because, in America, our sense of what government can or should provide is atrophied, and we, mistakenly, look to private actors to provide basic public services.

I don't think this matches reality. The US government is doing more today than any time point in the past. Spending and taxation as a percent of dgp is at an all time high.

There's also a sense that nobody should have to do anything themselves. There's nothing stopping anyone from talking to a homeless person and helping them set up an email account without 2fa.

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