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S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

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Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#201

Post by runarberg »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #155
nerb wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all living people have a risk of loss of freedoms you realize that the justice system doesn't equally impact everyone, right? people with more wealth, more access are demonstrably treated better and have better outcomes with regard to the justice system, so no, all living people do not have the same risk of losing freedoms. > ... which is why prison works ah, there it is i'm glad you agree with more access to publi…

> everyone, right? people with more wealth, more access are demonstrably treated I agree with you that this is an injustice and should be fixed, that doesnt mean we shouldnt work towards using the tool (it's not a either/or scenario, we can do both) . > is already done in homeless encampments. ... Only furthers my point as to why we should not be enabling bad behaviors

> I agree with you that this is an injustice and should be fixed, that doesnt mean we shouldnt work towards using the tool (it's not a either/or scenario, we can do both) .

idk. the amount the police harasses the unhoused, I think we all would be living in a police state if the same brutality was employed equally across citizens.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#202

Post by [deleted] »

cpuguy83 wrote: post #197
closeparen wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When inmates at one of the most notoriously dysfunctional jails spend a few hours in soiled clothes with poop on the floor, it's news. That's every day in Civic Center. There's a point at which freedom and independence aren't working for someone. Maybe with more resources it could work. But sometimes you need to be in the care of an institution from which you cannot just wander away. This seems obvious... I genuinely…

Let's shove everyone into a horrifying place that is already overcrowded and unable to take care of it's inmates and does very little to rehabilitate anyone. At least we won't see them anymore, right?

[deleted]

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#203

Post by twblalock »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #195
twblalock wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison is social housing, but it’s mandatory rather than optional. We could build all the social housing we want, but it will only house people who willingly move into it. Many homeless people are insane drug addicts, and they are the ones who disrupt society, and they will not willingly change. What would you do about that?

Prison abuses the soul and doesn’t help the individual. Look at the recidivism rates for US prisons to see how prison does nothing to rehabilitate people. If prison doesn’t help someone and you want to send them to prison, then you aren’t actually trying to help people you’re just trying to get rid of them. If you actually try to help people you will see how much better social housing is. But I don’t think that’s whe…

> Don’t pretend you want to help people if you don’t actually care what is most effective at helping them.

I want to help people. I just recognize reality. All of what you have suggested has been tried, and has failed, and now the streets of San Francisco are unrecognizably bad. Dystopian sci-fi movies from the 1980s are actually better than the reality on the streets today.

Also, who are we trying to help? Personally I care more about the person living in an apartment who has to deal with crazy people stabbing each other outside of their window in the morning than I do about the crazy people stabbing each other. Not enough attention has been paid to the people who are trying to live upright lives while being surrounded by this violence -- going to work, raising children, etc. They matter too.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#204

Post by TaylorAlexander »

twblalock wrote: post #203
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison abuses the soul and doesn’t help the individual. Look at the recidivism rates for US prisons to see how prison does nothing to rehabilitate people. If prison doesn’t help someone and you want to send them to prison, then you aren’t actually trying to help people you’re just trying to get rid of them. If you actually try to help people you will see how much better social housing is. But I don’t think that’s whe…

> Don’t pretend you want to help people if you don’t actually care what is most effective at helping them. I want to help people. I just recognize reality. All of what you have suggested has been tried, and has failed, and now the streets of San Francisco are unrecognizably bad. Dystopian sci-fi movies from the 1980s are actually better than the reality on the streets today. Also, who are we trying to help? Personall…

> All of what you have suggested has been tried, and has failed

People love to say this while ignoring the fact that universal health care and social housing absolutely work in other parts of the world. Whatever parts of this strategy you think have been tried, it’s clear there are ways to make it work. You’d rather abandon those people you consider lesser because of mental illness or addiction, but we can in fact support those people for the same price as a prison cell.

It’s remarkable that you think you recognize reality and believe these things can’t work, because $60k per year of spending on social services would absolutely work. I mean hell the average German only needs something like $8k in services for medical care per year. You don’t think that would help?? You can claim to “recognize reality” but you’re ignoring how effective public spending is the world over.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#205

Post by munk-a »

twblalock wrote: post #31
olivermarks wrote: post #10

'Unsheltered' is a propaganda word and a fig leaf for the very sad reality that we have a chronic opioid and meth crisis which tips many people over into serious mental illness. Giving these individuals expensive housing is not going to solve anything. California is a magnet for substance abuse casualties and as then SF mayor Newsom found at the end of his grandiose plan to 'end homelessness' ever more people arrived…

Realistically, the only way we can solve this is with incarceration. This has little to do with the availability of housing, or the cost of housing. Some people will simply refuse to live in the housing that is provided. Many are so mentally ill and addicted to drugs that no amount of money we give them, either directly or indirectly, will get them off the streets. Proposed solutions that don't involve incarceration…

When you say incarceration do you mean prison and jails or recovery clinics?

America (and Canada too!) had horrible issues with abuses in mental institutions that led to a short sighted knee-jerk reaction of shuttering all of them to prevent abuses rather than cleaning them up and addressing the actual concerns. As someone with a family member with developmental disabilities (comorbid with other issues) I've seen my family member thrive in institutional settings - not getting locked in a padded cell institutions but facilities with enough staff and patients to respond quickly and with specialized labour to sudden issues. I think it'd be wonderful if we could, as a society, get our minds away from Victoria Era sanitoriums where patients were exhibited as carnival shows and start seriously investing in larger facilities - home care options and group homes fall extremely short in providing ample care for folks while being extremely costly.

I don't think any of the people sleeping on the street are there by choice - it's just that their alternatives don't exist. A fair number of shelters are run by religious organizations that shame and preach to the homeless - offering a bed in exchange for prostelitization, other shelters are short on beds for the population they need to serve and prevent long term residency sometimes allowing a few consecutive nights - sometimes offering a single night, kicking everyone out in the morning and offering beds first come first served.

Depending on how you are defining incarceration I'm either in agreement with you or I guess - yea, it'd work, but it's a terrible solution to just force people with mental illnesses into the prison system where they will receive next to no mental healthcare and just rot as human beings. Mental disabilities don't make you subhuman.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#206

Post by twblalock »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #204
twblalock wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don’t pretend you want to help people if you don’t actually care what is most effective at helping them. I want to help people. I just recognize reality. All of what you have suggested has been tried, and has failed, and now the streets of San Francisco are unrecognizably bad. Dystopian sci-fi movies from the 1980s are actually better than the reality on the streets today. Also, who are we trying to help? Personall…

> All of what you have suggested has been tried, and has failed People love to say this while ignoring the fact that universal health care and social housing absolutely work in other parts of the world. Whatever parts of this strategy you think have been tried, it’s clear there are ways to make it work. You’d rather abandon those people you consider lesser because of mental illness or addiction, but we can in fact su…

America is not Germany. We have different people, and different problems. We have a uniquely violent and psychotic homeless population. You have probably not seen anything like it.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#207

Post by caminante »

hezralig wrote: post #161
closeparen wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know lots of normally functioning adults who cannot afford rent in San Francisco. Many of them have bigger, nicer houses than my apartment - elsewhere than San Francisco.

That's dope. Are any of them employed in SF, grew up in SF, and have no social supports outside of SF?

> Both friends I am currently in contact with are also CURRENTLY employed.

Genuinely curious, what is the estimated income of your two homeless friends? And do they have any limitations on their salary potential?

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#208

Post by munk-a »

closeparen wrote: post #187
cpuguy83 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely appalling. Considering we've historically incarcerated these people and it didn't fix anything, I don't see how you can blame "progressive" attempts to solve the crisis. Do more people come to these cities that have such policies? Probably... but that's not an indictment of the policy. We have a national crisis. We have some cities/states who literally pay for 1-way bus tickets out (as an alternati…

When inmates at one of the most notoriously dysfunctional jails spend a few hours in soiled clothes with poop on the floor, it's news. That's every day in Civic Center. There's a point at which freedom and independence aren't working for someone. Maybe with more resources it could work. But sometimes you need to be in the care of an institution from which you cannot just wander away. This seems obvious... I genuinely…

I think it's extremely important to differentiate between prisons (which, honestly, need some work anyways) and institutions that specialize in mental healthcare and drug addiction treatment that include mandatory stays. Both of these types of confinement can be described as "incarceration" but they are quite different.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#209

Post by munk-a »

twblalock wrote: post #206
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of what you have suggested has been tried, and has failed People love to say this while ignoring the fact that universal health care and social housing absolutely work in other parts of the world. Whatever parts of this strategy you think have been tried, it’s clear there are ways to make it work. You’d rather abandon those people you consider lesser because of mental illness or addiction, but we can in fact su…

America is not Germany. We have different people, and different problems. We have a uniquely violent and psychotic homeless population. You have probably not seen anything like it.

I believe this is extremely untrue - during the 70's it was (depressingly) actually accurate as stupid American politics kept leaded gasoline legal far beyond when it was known to be dangerous and caused a significant jump in violent crime but, for the most part, people are people.

If you think Americans are unable to function as well as Germans then I hope you're speaking out loudly at PTA meetings because it must mean the American education system is utterly broken.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#210

Post by munk-a »

yucky wrote: post #135
hezralig wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know plenty of homeless people in San Francisco without drug issues. The reason they are on the street or living in their cars or crashing on a friends couch in between either other spot? They cannot afford rent. Both friends I am currently in contact with are also CURRENTLY employed.

You know people who can't afford rent in one of the most expensive cities in the world to rent in? Shocked - shocked I tell you! If only there were a solution...

As a Vancouverite I'd appreciate it if you didn't compare your extremely affordable city to my own. /s
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