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Rust 2024 the Year of Everywhere?

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Re: Rust 2024 the Year of Everywhere?

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or return a pointer to a local variable that's about to go out of scope I thought of that recently. I wonder about using escape analysis to detect that and simply don't release the stack frame until the reference goes out of scope.

Static analysis/tracing absolutely can do a bunch of that kind of thing, particularly catching trivial cases. But I think it's still a pretty important upgrade when those things are being checked by the compiler, for free, with guarantees, as part of every build, rather than using some side-tool that may be proprietary, deliver oodles of false positives, and so on.

If you are using gcc, clang or vc++, to certain extent that is part of the compiler.

Just like C, following the UNIX principle, had compiler, assembler, linker, makefile, and linter since 1979. But people kept forgetting about the last piece of the puzzle and now it is a pain to bolt into existing code.

Re: Rust 2024 the Year of Everywhere?

#202
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It already is the next C++. It's a powerful language full of incredible abstractions but sadly that attracts incredibly smart developers who worship at the altar of complexity. I enjoy rust for what it is, and I've had fun writing programs in it. You couldn't pay me to work with it in a professional capacity involving peers. I'll stick to Go, where my code reads and writes like everyone else's.

But Go can’t be used for all low level programming. Of course a GCed language is easier to read, it’s simpler at the cost of performance. Rust complexity is more of a debate about low level programming below Go. Where only C/C++ and Rust exist. Can there be a simpler language in that space?

Of course it can, there are companies shipping products written in bare metal Go.

https://www.withsecure.com/en/solutions/innovative-security-...

https://github.com/usbarmory/tamago

Re: Rust 2024 the Year of Everywhere?

#203
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's really possible to seriously consider Haskell as somehow less "dizzyingly complex" than rust unless you're already a math postgrad. I like haskell, don't get me wrong, but it is not in any way simple to write or read or work with by comparison. And while rust has some heady concepts in its design, for the most part even advanced users don't actually need to understand most of them to use it (I thin…

Haskell is not really that complicated. What it is is capable of hosting dizzying complexity on top of its relatively simple core, which it is capable of hosting precisely because the core is so simple. It is similar to Lisp in that regard. There's also rather a lot of spazzing out because some very simple concepts like "monad" in Haskell somehow managed to pick up a lot of very bad explanations and an aura of mystiq…

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Re: Rust 2024 the Year of Everywhere?

#204
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was but one example of what I face at every single turn with Rust though. Complexity ( not conceptual difficulty) seems to be the general culturally accepted norm. I truly don't rule out that this reasonable given Rust's domain of use. But there is a general reluctance from Rust advocates to accept that it's complex, and that this complexity makes it hard to use. I do find the intense advocacy thing singularly o…

> Complexity (not conceptual difficulty) seems to be the general culturally accepted norm. Can you give an example of what you mean by "complexity"? I think this could be an instance of people simply having different definitions.

Here's an example (of complexity or difficulty, or .. whatever your preferred defs/vocab) that arose for me today (but on any day I do any Rust programming or reading I could find a similar example).

This is an answer on the forums to a fairly beginnery-looking question: https://users.rust-lang.org/t/what-does-borrow-mean/81794/3

In what language ecosystem other than Rust would that answer arise as an answer to a beginner's question? Haskell, or a research language perhaps. I can't make head or tail of the Rust Playground example there. In fact if I look through most of recent questions on the Rust forum, there's probably 1 in 10 where I even grok the question, let alone the answer. I haven't experienced this elsewhere. Rust has a culture of complexity, and its community is in a state of denial about it (for I think a fairly obvious reason). Furious denunciations ensue even if anyone dare suggest such a thing!

Re: Rust 2024 the Year of Everywhere?

#205
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is Rust adds a lot of complexity to solve the main problem it purports to solve: memory management. I spent the first 20 years of my career doing C/C++ development and we were able to "solve" that problem with far less complexity. Rust changed so much in the early days (I really hate the mantra of move fast and break things when it comes to programming languages) that I got tired of all the breaking c…

I’m genuinly curious - how did you „solve” memory safety issues in C/C++?

Sorry - got busy over the weekend. In the five different places I worked while using C++ the problem was solved with convention and discipline. When MFC came out it helped standardize memory management best practices and people began following them. Also, auto_ptr was a godsend!

Re: Rust 2024 the Year of Everywhere?

#206

My theory is that every technology that is too complex gets replaced with something that does the same thing more simply. You see this relentlessly in the JavaScript ecosystem where waves of too-complex tools get rapidly replaced with something else, only to be swept away again when someone finds an even more simple way to do the same thing. This must be the fate of Rust - eventually it will be replaced with a langua…

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