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What I’ve learned from users

paulgraham.com

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Re: What I’ve learned from users

#201

Post by FerociousTimes »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #184
FerociousTimes wrote: post #93

Prompted by the negative feedback that this essay received, ranging from being a sales pitch in disguise, to being a word salad going in all directions without answering the central question posed by the author right in the opening paragraphs, I had to go and re-examine the piece and see if these concerns are valid or not, and unexpectedly the second reading reaffirmed my initial positive reaction that this is actual…

I agree, and this is coming from somehow who's been relatively disillusioned with pg's essays of late - I made this comment about another pg essay about a year ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28951278 While I still think many of those points apply to this essay (yes, whether or not it's a sales pitch "in disguise", it's still a sales pitch), they don't bother me as much here because pg is specifically talki…

While I don't agree with your view regarding the classification of this piece as a sales pitch -- it's infused with variable value proposition statements, it doesn't detract from the core message -- I share your sentiment that PG is one of the leading experts in the world of startup accelerators.

Regarding your suggestions, I don't think that this listicle-heavy Buzzfeed type of writing suits PG. I'm more drawn to his abstract and enigmatic writing style.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#202

Post by phpthrowaway99 »

bluGill wrote: post #175
geph2021 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience[1], interacting with the salesperson and agreeing on the cars' price is about 25% of the sale process (and hassle). The salesperson nails down price, model/unit, with the customer, which already involves all manner of sleazy games on pricing. After the "sale", there's a much longer gauntlet of pitfalls and traps to navigate: extended warranties, add-ons (roof racks, floor mats, etc...), financing, tr…

Everyone checks KBB, edmunds, and all the others before buying a car. Thus everyone knows exactly what the dealer is paying for the car before walking in. Nobody is willing to leave the dealer a reasonable profit margin or the salesman a living wage. There are plenty of other dealers and nobody is loyal so odds are they won't see you again no matter how good the experience is (if you are a corporation buying for a fl…

I personally don't think what the dealer paid matters. If a car is desirable, a few are available, we're going to sell for as much as possible.

If a car is undesirable, and many are available and we need to move them, we will sell them for a loss.

I don't blame people for buying cars we sell for at a loss (although sometimes I wonder why these people don't stop and wonder why this car is so heavily discounted). And they shouldn't blame us for charging more for something many people want and is in short supply.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#203

Post by phpthrowaway99 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #162
phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #94

PGs take on why early stage VCs gain so much experience reminds me of my opinions on why car sales is the best sales experience. I sold cars for almost a decade and was pretty good at it averaging 30 cars a month. That means every year I helped people sign for $16 million of products. In the end I probably sold 3000 cars for over $100 million. (Note, I stayed in it way too long. I think most of these benefits would c…

Fortunately our local dealership is no-commission. So the folks are honestly trying to help you figure out what's right for you.

To be honest, so was I. Selling you something stupid is a lot more work, and riskier, than selling you what you want and works well.

I personally had more leads than I could handle, because I didn't burn my leads. So if you came in wanting a vehicle for the snow, and all I had was SUVs with the sports package and performance tires, I didn't lie to you or try to downplay it. Sure I mentioned you could have a winter set of wheels and swap, and get the best performance year round, but I didn't say "don't worry, these tires work just fine in snow". It burns leads that know better.

Thus if I couldnt really help you, I'd make the best of the situation if possible and move on. I had enough people to email and call back waiting on me, that spending an hour lying in hopes of a sale really wasn't worth it.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#204

Post by flavmartins »

ejb999 wrote: post #128
lnwlebjel wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I rank buy a car from a new car salesman as the worst consumer experience of my life. So much so that I've since bought used cars and in the future hope to buy a Tesla in large part to avoid that experience. I understand that it could greatly benefit the salesperson in understanding the social psychology of the consumer ... but never again will I subject myself to that process.

I'd rather go get a cavity filled, then buy a new car. Do it as infrequently as possible (hoping to get another 10 years out of my 11 year old Toyota). Every time I visit a new car dealer I feel a need to take a shower, just to get the stink off of me.

> I'd rather go get a cavity filled

WITHOUT anesthesia

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#205

Post by phpthrowaway99 »

dangrossman wrote: post #173
phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do this at any dealership.

You'd like to think that, but no, there are plenty of dealers that will TELL you they're happy to negotiate everything by email/phone and then you just show up and get the car, but once you're there they want to change the deal and will still make you sit in a little office with someone that tries to add-on warranties, paint protection, prepaid services, etc.

You mentioned you liked dealers that don't negotiate. So I mentioned you can buy without negotiating at any dealership. The advertised price is pretty fair at 90% of dealerships.

Beyond that, their advertised specials are spectacular deals usually. Who spends money and attention advertising specials that don't even compete with the competition?

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#206

Post by iamwil »

iamwil wrote: post #63
lisper wrote: post #45

This essay is getting a surprising amount of hate, and I must confess that my first impression on reading it was that it sounded an awful lot like a Robert Kiyosaki book [1]. But then I followed the two links in the essay [2] [3] and that put it into perspective: the thing that Paul learned from his users is that they are looking for The Answer, the formula, the procedure for how to succeed, and there is no such form…

Yeah, I think it's a combination of some of this stuff is common knowledge now, rather than surprising, and people were looking for concrete examples of mistakes startups made (so they can avoid it themselves) Rather, this is an essay about what was surprising to him about startups in YC. And I think it's fair to say that these were all surprising, and I wouldn't have inferred them if someone told me about YC as an i…

I had to run before I finished, but to wrap it up:

Going back to the initial set up of the piece, he was trying to help startups get into YC. Basically he was helping them sell themselves to YC, by having them answer “explain what you learned from users”

If it’s any effective at all, then by answering this question, you can make your startup very compelling to YC. Would it work? One way to judge that is to apply it to what he knows (YC) and see if it’s appealing to startups both now and back in 2005.

So the complaint about how this piece feels sales-y is missing the forest for the trees, because that’s the point of the exercise!

By the very nature of the intent of the question, of course it’s going to sound like a sales pitch for YC. That’s the whole purpose of the exercise to begin with. It’s a question, when answered, begates a sales pitch for getting into YC.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#207

Post by FerociousTimes »

insightcheck wrote: post #116
FerociousTimes wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Testimonials in general are like these cheesy or sleazy infomercials on home shopping channels, fake and worthless and that's why they earned the bad reputation that they have. Also, it is not even that the essay itself is totally bereft of real world examples to support his thesis, when he actually cited Airbnb as a case of coming around, and applying the practical advice given to the founders by YC to deliver value…

To clarify, I maintain that testimonials from people who give their full names (and thus can be contacted after) are perceived as solid evidence. A common real-life example of named testimonials seen as credible by recruiters are written LinkedIn endorsements from named people who are connections on a person's profile. However, I agree that nameless or semi-anonymized testimonials are less valuable and give the entir…

1) As you said, these LinkedIn *testimonials" are more of professional endorsements than anything. In my opinions, testimonials on the web have become totally discredited, and the moment I see one in the wild, the first thing that pops on my mind, it's a commercial with an identity crisis.

2) I totally agree with you that details are scarce and left much to be desired but maybe this narrative is more suitable to other media like books or podcasts where they have the space to expand on points and let us all on the juicy details.

I pretty much would have appreciated to hear the full story on Airbnb struggles in the beginning and how they managed to turn it around.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#208

Post by mannymanman »

phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #94

PGs take on why early stage VCs gain so much experience reminds me of my opinions on why car sales is the best sales experience. I sold cars for almost a decade and was pretty good at it averaging 30 cars a month. That means every year I helped people sign for $16 million of products. In the end I probably sold 3000 cars for over $100 million. (Note, I stayed in it way too long. I think most of these benefits would c…

For someone employed in tech, does anyone have recommendations for how to improve sales skills? Assuming I can't leave my current job.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#209

Post by m-ee »

phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #139
peterkos wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recognize that it could be a helpful and rigorous experience in sales, but most car people I've gone to across dealerships have tried to guilt trip and lie to me to get me to spend more money than I have. As a student paying full in cash, I was pushed ruthlessly despite firmly saying no, and ultimately I got my car somewhere else. It reminds me how Best Buy used to have horrible customer experience, it was all comm…

I was about top 1% in the country. So buying from me would be a different experience. Maybe you landed on someone in the bottom 50%, at a bad dealership too. The owner of our dealership was a Cal grad, the sales manager was a Jewish accounting major, I had an engineering degree, my favorite coworker completed medschool but couldn't pass the MCATS, and everyone else had a degree too. When I went to work for a Penske d…

The MCAT is for admission into med school. How did they complete it without passing?

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#210

Post by tomjakubowski »

halfjoking wrote: post #87
JL-Akrasia wrote: post #2

Caveat - The best type of mentors for founders are other founders. VCs, Incubators, are not optimal mentors, rather those are key folks to have in your pocket. My suggestion for all founders - find a mentor who is a founder & builder.

Let's say you're one of the hundreds of thousands of solo devs/founders making some money - but less than $1000/month on your SaaS startup. You don't want VC, you just want growth and the ability to do your startup full-time. Why would someone mentor you in that case? What's the benefit to them?

Lots of people simply enjoy helping others when they can.
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