Earlier quoted context omitted.
Erlang/OTP does medium difficulty things, i.e. very large applications with good fault tolerance and QoS, really well. But it's a very different niche. Perl and Ruby scale to mid sized applications quite well, but above that fault tolerance and QoS become hard.
I think with languages like Perl, Ruby and Python you just need a static, compiled language to migrate to at a certain scale, preferably with similar features. Kotlin and Scala seem to be currently the best options for Ruby, Python and OO Perl. For procedural Perl maybe Golang.
Not Your Grandfather’s Perl
201–210 of 257 posts
Re: Not Your Grandfather’s Perl
#202With function signatures and state variables added in 5.010, I consider Perl feature-complete and have not really missed anything from it for as long as I've been writing Perl. What I do appreciate that's missing from many other languages and systems is the extreme committment to backwards compatibility. The knowledge that the next minor release won't break existing scripts is underrated, IMO. Solo project with ~23K…
> What I do appreciate that's missing from many other languages and systems is the extreme committment to backwards compatibility. Is that even something they're doing on purpose? Didn't they completely botch their attempt at a new major version? When Python moved from Python 2 to Python 3, introducing breaking changes, there was enough velocity and acceleration in the Python ecosystem for people to be willing to tak…
Paint me unconvinced. Python2 is still a thing, 14 years later.
Re: Not Your Grandfather’s Perl
#203I don’t really miss perl. I do miss the period when perlmonks was relevant to me. I haven’t really seen a similar community since. Maybe rose tinted spectacles on my part but i learned some really enlightening algorithms on there specifically in text processing and i recall it being a really warm community. Randall Schwarz used to run a podcast that was a total goldmine. Fond memories of listening to that on the trai…
Most of the people who were on perlmonks are still around somewhere. Often with the same or a similar handle. (I added my first initial to mine.)
Re: Not Your Grandfather’s Perl
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
Needs static typing. I'll let myself out now.
When was the last time this caused a bug for you? My experience of moving from JavaScript to typescript is that it takes significantly longer to write many generic things because the types can’t really express the intended use as well. I will certainly admit that types help a lot at the boundaries between systems , or for catching errors introduced when changing code, but it’s not always a clear win for types, given…
Re: Not Your Grandfather’s Perl
#205I skimmed the article looking for a mention of a REPL or a new debugger. Perl is a great language but it lacks these tools. Sometimes I just want to try a couple of lines of Perl code in a REPL, but I cannot. Instead, I need to create a file. Also, when debugging with `perl -d`, I cannot use the Up arrow key to get the previous command. Not a big deal but the coding experience will be significantly improved with thos…
https://metacpan.org/pod/Devel::REPL https://metacpan.org/pod/Reply
Not to mention the Jupyter kernel: https://metacpan.org/dist/Devel-IPerl
Re: Not Your Grandfather’s Perl
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
Getting strings to have the right encodings should be easy. On the last Perl codebase I touched it's proven impossible for all practical intents and purposes.
It's markedly easier than with Python, though. Here's a short script that will recode a file with mixed iso-8859-1 and utf8 data into proper utf8: #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; use warnings; use Encode qw( decode FB_QUIET ); binmode STDIN, ':bytes'; binmode STDOUT, ':encoding(UTF-8)'; my $out; while ( ) { $out = ''; while ( length ) { $out .= decode( "utf-8", $_, FB_QUIET ); $out .= decode( "iso-8859-1", substr( $_, 0,…
The problem is that Perl internally encodes strings as sequences of numbers. Not even sequences of bytes, but sequences of numbers that could either be codepoints or bytes resulting from the encoding of such a sequence of codepoints. ...as a developer you are perfectly free to make this assumption any way you please at any given point in your codebase. It's not even clear that any one of those two is particularly "preferred" at large or a best practice or anything like that.
To make things worse, there is no way to know which is which, i.e. a string itself is happily ignorant about the assumptions that people will/should make about it. And Perl will happily concatenate strings making different kinds of assumptions, or double- or triple-encode them as you please, or decode something that hasn't been encoded in the first place.
This leads to jumbles of numbers that aren't anything in particular. They simply work well enough for sloppy programmers to not realize when they are making mistakes, but badly enough to almost guarantee that encoding errors will crop up on users' screens regularly.
Now, given that this is how the language works, be my guest jumping into a 100k loc Perl codebase that dozens of programmers have touched over a decade, passing around and munging together strings not just within their own codebase, but also using strings stored to and retrieved from elsewhere, in some case places where no one knows anymore where they initially came from or where they will ultimately go to.
Re: Not Your Grandfather’s Perl
#207I skimmed the article looking for a mention of a REPL or a new debugger. Perl is a great language but it lacks these tools. Sometimes I just want to try a couple of lines of Perl code in a REPL, but I cannot. Instead, I need to create a file. Also, when debugging with `perl -d`, I cannot use the Up arrow key to get the previous command. Not a big deal but the coding experience will be significantly improved with thos…
Re: Not Your Grandfather’s Perl
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm surprised CPAN is not mentioned. I wonder if it is still active. CPAN is indeed alive and kicking; https://metacpan.org/
The thing is back in the day 35,000 modules on CPAN was a big deal but if you look at https://modulecounts.com that's since been dwarfed by Python/PyPI (398,000), Ruby/Rubygems (173,000), PHP/Packagist (351,000) and JS/npm (2,116,000).
Re: Not Your Grandfather’s Perl
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's markedly easier than with Python, though. Here's a short script that will recode a file with mixed iso-8859-1 and utf8 data into proper utf8: #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; use warnings; use Encode qw( decode FB_QUIET ); binmode STDIN, ':bytes'; binmode STDOUT, ':encoding(UTF-8)'; my $out; while ( ) { $out = ''; while ( length ) { $out .= decode( "utf-8", $_, FB_QUIET ); $out .= decode( "iso-8859-1", substr( $_, 0,…
Thanks for posting the happily ignorant code snippet that I have been waiting for. The problem is that Perl internally encodes strings as sequences of numbers. Not even sequences of bytes, but sequences of numbers that could either be codepoints or bytes resulting from the encoding of such a sequence of codepoints. ...as a developer you are perfectly free to make this assumption any way you please at any given point…
Thank you from being so civil. IMO displaying a badly encoded string beats crashing on a runtime error most of the time. I'd rather see "hôpital" than "Error 500", if you will. Maybe don't think your personal assumptions carry any validity out of your own choices, preferences, or uses.
I imagine the difficulty working with a huge codebase lacking refactoring and maybe even predating utf-8, but where would you be if it was written in Python 2.5 originally?
Re: Not Your Grandfather’s Perl
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for posting the happily ignorant code snippet that I have been waiting for. The problem is that Perl internally encodes strings as sequences of numbers. Not even sequences of bytes, but sequences of numbers that could either be codepoints or bytes resulting from the encoding of such a sequence of codepoints. ...as a developer you are perfectly free to make this assumption any way you please at any given point…
> Thanks for posting the happily ignorant code snippet that I have been waiting for. Thank you from being so civil. IMO displaying a badly encoded string beats crashing on a runtime error most of the time. I'd rather see "hôpital" than "Error 500", if you will. Maybe don't think your personal assumptions carry any validity out of your own choices, preferences, or uses. I imagine the difficulty working with a huge co…
Any python programmer would tell you: Starting a new project in 2022 in Python 2.5 is professional malpractice.
But that's what the original post seems to be saying: That Perl 5 has somehow managed to fix any of what was fundamentally wrong with it. ...and that couldn't be further from the truth. And people in this thread are saying that maybe they should have another look into Perl 5 as a serious option for starting out a new codebase in 2022. ...and that's a very bad idea.
Sure: If you started out a new codebase in Perl 5 in 2022, there are coding standards you could adopt to avoid getting yourself into a pickle where string encodings are concerned. But without the interpreter helping you out on that front, it'll produce ugly code, and take mental discipline and disciplined code reviewing practices on a team. It's solving a problem that Python solves for you so much more easily and effectively. You could go with Perl 6 / Raku, but why would you? What does it have to recommend it over Python or Ruby, other than a Perl programmer's nostalgia for being a little Perl-like?
You could say the transition from Perl 5 to Perl 6 is just like the transition from Python 2 to Python 3. The difference is: Perl is simply late by at least a decade.
The point that the article is trying to refute, namely that Perl is for dinosaurs, in my mind just absolutely stands.