Live data from Hacker News

They're trying to get me kidnapped and tortured, but Twitter doesn't care

waqas.xyz

201–210 of 258 posts

Re: They're trying to get me kidnapped and tortured, but Twitter doesn't care

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter is nowhere near big enough to hire enough people in a country like Pakistan to matter as much as control of public media does - especially to a fascist government. Not to mention, knowing how such agencies operate, I would bet anything that a good few of any such moderators would be Pakistani secret services agents.

No, but they could roll out a pilot program for establishing local moderating offices and as part of that program establish a list of qualifying criteria for where they are willing to place such. They could do something akin to what McDonald's did for the beef industry. It adopted Temple Grandin's list of best practices as its standard and this got adopted by the beef industry because McDonald's buys so much beef. Cu…

First of all, why would an authoritarian government want an impartial moderating office for media in their country? If anything, I expect Pakistan to soon demand government control over censoring Twitter, not the other way arpund.

Second of all, Twitter is a bit player in media. Comparing it to McDonald's is absurd. If we were talking about Facebook, this may be a different matter.

Third of all, government relation to media is significantly different to government's relationship to beef. There is no government in the world that wants a bad beef industry, but many many governments that actively want a biased media industry, and are more than willing to sacrifice monetary concerns to achieve this goal. Countries much smaller (at least in population) than Pakistan have actively kicked out platforms like Twitter - see Russia for example.

I will say it again: it is not realistic to expect a foreign media platform to fight government propaganda inside an authoritarian country. Twitter is not the BBC or Reuters, and even those places don't often try to publish in authoritarian countries.

Re: They're trying to get me kidnapped and tortured, but Twitter doesn't care

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but they could roll out a pilot program for establishing local moderating offices and as part of that program establish a list of qualifying criteria for where they are willing to place such. They could do something akin to what McDonald's did for the beef industry. It adopted Temple Grandin's list of best practices as its standard and this got adopted by the beef industry because McDonald's buys so much beef. Cu…

First of all, why would an authoritarian government want an impartial moderating office for media in their country? If anything, I expect Pakistan to soon demand government control over censoring Twitter, not the other way arpund. Second of all, Twitter is a bit player in media. Comparing it to McDonald's is absurd. If we were talking about Facebook, this may be a different matter. Third of all, government relation t…

If they can't take the heat, they can get out of the kitchen. If they want to stay, they need to somehow deal with the reality that they are doing business in a dangerous part of the world and their moderating decisions can impact who lives, who dies, etc.

Re: They're trying to get me kidnapped and tortured, but Twitter doesn't care

#203
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise seems more about how easily Twitter can be used to support a coup, suppress journalistic voice, oppress people, and push propaganda. I don't know if without Twitter all this would be just as easy, through state controlled media, but what I do know is that Twitter could actually be a tool against this, but is failing to be. Having a popular media outlet that cannot be coopted for propaganda and used for op…

I dispute that Twitter could be a tool against those things, because that implies that it's within Twitter's capabilities to know everything that is going on in the world in order to distinguish between true and untrue tweets. Given that limitation, I would argue that the ideal communication medium simply conveys the messages it's given without regard for their contents. What people do with those messages is somethin…

I don't think Twitter needs to assess what is true or not, but it can try to find ways to know the source and make sure they're not bad actors, paid agents, state sponsors, etc.

For example, OP mentions how they never allowed him to have a verified badge even though he tried. This very much seems like something Twitter could have done. Now to anyone else, his account seems just as fake as any other impersonating him.

It could also put more effort behind investigating reports like the OP did. And it could also have detection and review processes for any kind of tweet that could be defaming. Accusation of criminal acts, labeling of people, mention of violence, arrest, etc.

Finally, this is the Web 3 era, who knows what mechanism it could find to innovate on that front.

The issue I have with what you say is the ideal communication medium ignores the issues with Twitter, such that it doesn't just simply convey content without regard. It selectively prioritizes, automatically suggests, and promotes certain tweets over others. It also gives very little recourse to people receiving the content to do their own due diligence, or to people who are targeted by the tweets to have a means to provide their counterpoint to the same audience, unless they themselves are just as powerful an actor.

You could imagine a relatively simple feature, any Tweet that mentions someone else by name or Twitter alias, that person should be able to attach a response to them that is shown under those tweets automatically. Twitter wouldn't need to choose the truth, but it gives recourse and mechanisms for the process of truth seeking to take place and for the people being shown the tweet more context and therefore better means to make up their own mind.

Re: They're trying to get me kidnapped and tortured, but Twitter doesn't care

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, why would an authoritarian government want an impartial moderating office for media in their country? If anything, I expect Pakistan to soon demand government control over censoring Twitter, not the other way arpund. Second of all, Twitter is a bit player in media. Comparing it to McDonald's is absurd. If we were talking about Facebook, this may be a different matter. Third of all, government relation t…

If they can't take the heat, they can get out of the kitchen. If they want to stay, they need to somehow deal with the reality that they are doing business in a dangerous part of the world and their moderating decisions can impact who lives, who dies, etc.

I agree - I think demanding Twitter stop its service in countries where tweets are likely to cost people lives is a much more realistic goal, and one I would support.

Re: They're trying to get me kidnapped and tortured, but Twitter doesn't care

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, it isn't the police or justice system's job. That's a corporation externalizing the cost of their customer service division onto the taxpayer. Australia for example spends millions of dollars on online safety enforcement because these tech companies refuse to hire real people to remove revenge porn, impersonation, and so on.

That’s not right. The corporation’s job is to follow the law and abide to court orders. Identifying and prosecuting harassers is not “customer service”. If you take customer’s claims at face value what you get is people misusing the system to harass or silence even more people. They should immediately act on takedown notices, for example in the case of revenge porn, but are not a private replacement for law enforceme…

The corporation's minimum burden is to follow the law and abide by court orders.

That doesn't mean a corporation should be exempt from criticism when it does the wrong thing despite fulfilling that minimum burden. Laws are inadequate, and have loopholes.

Example: A corporation could literally make it its mission to funnel all profits into buying dirty coal and burning it for no reason whatsoever. There's nothing illegal about this in many countries.

  "They should immediately act on takedown notices, for example in the case of revenge porn, but are not a private replacement for law enforcement."
They don't immediately act on such notices. That's part of the problem. They've pushed their customer service division onto the taxpayers of rich countries. And they've outright screwed the people on poor countries (Myanmar?) that have no recourse.

Re: They're trying to get me kidnapped and tortured, but Twitter doesn't care

#206
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a long history of liability in the USA when you take on editorializing roles. This was broken by the Communication Decency Act (CDA section 230) but case law has is slowly moving back. It is a valid concern. If CDA 230 were taken away, I wouldn’t be surprised if common carrier laws fell as well. The telephone companies can listen to all phone calls, so they may need to editorialize (mute, disconnect, report…

Twitter's response was so soulless, it's unclear if it's a bot. This is what i find most unacceptable. Others have expanded on the censorship problem in this thread.

A response should be delivered quickly and efficiently, and in no uncertain terms. Filling it with heart and soul just gives false hope that some kind of appeal to emotion can be achieved. But it cannot.

Re: They're trying to get me kidnapped and tortured, but Twitter doesn't care

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can't take the heat, they can get out of the kitchen. If they want to stay, they need to somehow deal with the reality that they are doing business in a dangerous part of the world and their moderating decisions can impact who lives, who dies, etc.

I agree - I think demanding Twitter stop its service in countries where tweets are likely to cost people lives is a much more realistic goal, and one I would support.

I'm not personally demanding anything of Twitter.

I'm just talking on a forum on a Sunday afternoon.

Re: They're trying to get me kidnapped and tortured, but Twitter doesn't care

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pakistan isn't allowed to have as much free speech as the rest of the world because it's too violent? Not all speech is free speech. In the US, there are limitations, such as harmful or offensive content, and this includes speech that is both false and dangerous. This is not a free speech issue. The OP is being stalked. Fundamentally, stalking is a threat of injury or death, as well as unwanted surveillance by an i…

I just don't understand what we're talking about here. The source article doesn't say that anyone has stalked him, surveilled him, or threatened him. His complaints are that someone said he's "inciting violence" when that's not an accurate characterization of his perspective, and that someone said he works for an organization he doesn't work for. In the US neither of these things are a big deal and could not be a cri…

> The source article doesn't say that anyone has stalked him, surveilled him, or threatened him. His complaints are that someone said he's "inciting violence" when that's not an accurate characterization of his perspective, and that someone said he works for an organization he doesn't work for. In the US neither of these things are a big deal and could not be a criminal issue.

No. I'm the one who said he is being stalked.

> In Pakistan, activists and journalists are routinely picked up (abducted) and tortured by the country's police and secret services. Same happened this time, some of the top journalists and anchors were picked up - some without warrants with fake cases filed post-arrest. Some of these journalists remain under custody till date. These journalists, according to reports, have been stripped and tortured under custody.

> The current Minister for Planning and Development falsely accused me of inciting violence, probably in the hopes of building a false case and narrative against me, when I had only called for people to question their politicians. These people were showing their frustration because I was out of their reach and could not be abducted for the time being. What came from the Minister was maybe an exaggeration or a veiled threat, but what started happening after was more insidious. To start off their harassment campaign against me,

He is definitely being threatened and stalked. It's the abuse of the parody account to defame the OP. That would be all fine and good if not for the regular disappearing of Pakistani journalists and protesters. If anything like this happened in the US, let's say the KKK started disappearing journalists and protesters, once that kind of environment existed, any sort of online shenanigans spotlighting private individuals, slandering and defaming them, if it regularly happened to the disappeared before they disappeared, then it would be a very big deal, investigated, prosecuted, with felonies and significant jail time delivered, even without that particular victim being kidnapped or murdered.

Re: They're trying to get me kidnapped and tortured, but Twitter doesn't care

#210

I am sorry for the responses I am seeing on HN. People with cushy lives who've likely never faced similar danger seem to just not really get it. I will say that your framing is one that most Westerners will have trouble taking seriously. It might go over better to document known cases where this pattern occurred and show the similarities. Walk people through it like they are five, so to speak. I know it's hard to do…

People with cushy lives, working for some mid-level corp writing CRUD apps used by 20 people, also have never faced the challenges of moderation at million people scale. So, it kind of cuts both ways

> also have never faced the challenges of moderation at million people scale. So, it kind of cuts both ways

Not really, given that I can see the billions in cash on hand of these social media companies, which they could use to hire real people instead of intentionally neglecting customer service because it isn't a driver of profits, and instead choosing to dump these costs on the taxpayer of the countries that have to clean up the mess via the legal system. Negligence or even incompetence is not a valid excuse for actively facilitating a spectrum of behaviors ranging from harassment (this case) to fomenting populism (US elections) to outright murder (Myanmar).

Post reply on HN