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Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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201–210 of 536 posts

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#201
When skilled labor is turned into a commodity through regulatory capture, it unfortunately bids down the opportunity cost of a labor sector. Global minimums are natural as western businesses forgo ownership, in exchange for foreign authoritarian or subsidized labor pools.

The fruit of outsourcing tastes rotten, but people still love their iPhones. ;)

How about people use some of that STEM money to train thousands of new CEOs and Fund managers. This would drive down the relative top wages, create more competition, and increase tax revenue.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also went to school for EE, but after a summer job doing SW, I switched to CS when I got back in the fall. I think CS (a good program) teaches you fundamentally how Systems work, independent of the substrate. EE is actually rather trivial compared to the complexity of big systems. EEs just learn altium, read some data sheets, and poof, out pop the circuits. Throw it in LT spice if you think it'll impress the boss.…

If all you do is board-level integration of relatively low-speed stuff, then yes, SWE is more demanding. But that's not even the tip of the iceberg in the EE world. To name a few: high speed digital (Gbps+), ASIC (digital vs. mixed signal, RTL vs. physical design, ...), RF, precision analog, both very low and very high power, photonics, EMI... Each of these subjects require deep, arcane domain knowledge on top of phy…

The stuff about needing to know a lot more physics or arcane domain specific stuff isn't so true. If you talk to someone who's got pink sunglasses about SWE, they'll say a bunch of stuff in our industry is "arcane domain specific knowledge" to them.

You're probably romanticising it too because it's a hoby of yours, which just leads to skwes in your perception.

Source: studied EE, after realising I wouldn't like my career paths, I switched to CS. Mostly worked as SWE tho, but I did work in ab unusual and creative EE role first, before realising that most EE jobs wouldn't be so engaging

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#203
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also went to school for EE, but after a summer job doing SW, I switched to CS when I got back in the fall. I think CS (a good program) teaches you fundamentally how Systems work, independent of the substrate. EE is actually rather trivial compared to the complexity of big systems. EEs just learn altium, read some data sheets, and poof, out pop the circuits. Throw it in LT spice if you think it'll impress the boss.…

Electrical Engineers also work in semiconductor design, nuclear power, RF, and a whole host of other domains, none of which are child's play. >For a SW person, heck, there is always something that must be mastered, and pronto. Unless a SW person can kick back and write COBOL all day, there is much more to learn and apply to problem solutions. SW is fundamentally more demanding. Surely you jest. From what I can see th…

Not everyone spends their days chasing frameworks in SWE, and not everyone spends designing the next SoC breakthrough in EE.

EE and SWE are both very wide paths to travel along.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#204
post #122

Food for thought: At the time of this comment almost all the top comments are about pay. No doubt pay is an important consideration, but it worries me when it’s the primary consideration. The best engineers I know like engineering because they have a natural curiosity to learn how things work, not because it’s the easiest route to riches. Any engineering position can lead to a comfortable life, but when everything is…

It is not that an aspiring EE switches to become a lawyer. EE is often a special kind of software development. Switching to a "software" job often enough doesn't deeply mean a change of proffession. You are still an engineer (at least in the interesting software jobs).

And it is not about "hustling to make the most money the quickest way possible", if you switch to a company which pays a lot better for a similar job. And as a lot of those jobs are located in expensive places, an engineering salary doesn't easily pay for a nice house or any house at all.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all you do is board-level integration of relatively low-speed stuff, then yes, SWE is more demanding. But that's not even the tip of the iceberg in the EE world. To name a few: high speed digital (Gbps+), ASIC (digital vs. mixed signal, RTL vs. physical design, ...), RF, precision analog, both very low and very high power, photonics, EMI... Each of these subjects require deep, arcane domain knowledge on top of phy…

The stuff about needing to know a lot more physics or arcane domain specific stuff isn't so true. If you talk to someone who's got pink sunglasses about SWE, they'll say a bunch of stuff in our industry is "arcane domain specific knowledge" to them. You're probably romanticising it too because it's a hoby of yours, which just leads to skwes in your perception. Source: studied EE, after realising I wouldn't like my ca…

>The stuff about needing to know a lot more physics or arcane domain specific stuff isn't so true

ha ha wait until you find out about microwave engineering.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#206
Follow the pay. Everyone I knew in EECS flipped to the CS route because software salaries are so damn high. Electronics became a low margin commodity business, software somehow hasn't. And somehow the software industry has enough revenue to warrant hiring at a rapid clip (VC capital?).

Unless software margins collapse or we end up with a dev glut, there's no way EE can bid labor up to match.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#207
post #149
post #122

Food for thought: At the time of this comment almost all the top comments are about pay. No doubt pay is an important consideration, but it worries me when it’s the primary consideration. The best engineers I know like engineering because they have a natural curiosity to learn how things work, not because it’s the easiest route to riches. Any engineering position can lead to a comfortable life, but when everything is…

I am trained in electronics. I love it. I have never stopped messing with electronics and microcontrollers over my whole life. (And how good is it these days with things like, the RISC-V ESP32 with wifi and cheap as chips, unreal little modules, for example measuring temperature to +/- 0.01C, air-born particles, radiation etc etc). This said, I doubt I could afford a comfortable life with a house and family in a majo…

I love electronics and circuit building. I’ve been told that the compensation is shockingly poor compared to that of software engineers. This didn’t affect my college experience, as I was already well into my SE career when I finished my degree. As I recall though, the course load was harder and the opportunities fewer.

Incidentally, I had a friend who was an EE who went on to become a Patent attorney. He told me he did so because he didn’t want to spend the rest of his life maintaining a print server design.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#208

EE spent so many years making sure everyone knew it's impossibly hard, the professors eat their young, etc. I've seen this in other professions where the incumbents desperately want to impose, in actuality, the uphill-both-ways life story they believe they endured. And then they are shocked when the young peace out. The military, and their insanely rigorous special warfare training. The medical profession in general.…

Meanwhile, CS is reaping the benefits of a decade and a half of pushing the “Anyone can code!” narrative. CE and EE’s disdain for juniors and rampant credentialism will inevitably become a national security issue.

[deleted]

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#209
post #18

I moved into IT from "formal" engineering and its always frustrated me that a job that involves working on extremely expensive engines using upper level college math gets paid almost nothing compared to people who change colors on a webpage every once in a while. I've been on floors where multi-million dollar pieces of equipment are used to produce parts with obscene levels of precision being used by expert machinist…

> It makes no sense. Why is web software so easy to make money in? Why do we value hard engineering so little?

Value is determined by quantitative exchange in a market and not by any intrinsic qualities such as difficulty of labor.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#210
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? A simple one line change recently brought down CloudFlare. And least you think that's not important, a one line change to code brought down most of AT&T's phone network in 1990 (think 911).

Compare the amount of effort that goes into both design and production of a physical part and a line of code. A single physical part generally has many, many inputs and outputs (expressed as its physical contact surfaces, tolerances, forces and stresses of all possible kinds from all directions they are supposed to withstand, etc., all with the added dimension of time) compared to a line of code or even a function. Y…

Software has analogous constraints, with regards to scale, performance, latency, design, etc. Everyone thinks that a line of code can be quickly replaced. On a small program, this is true. But at scale, this is not true at all and anyone that's worked on a multi-million line application knows this. You cannot have every line of a complex system in your head at once. You cannot instantly solve for all of the interconnecting pieces in your mind at once. It takes a team of software engineers of various disciplines to consider the tradeoffs of any change to these complex systems. In particular when they are live and supporting millions to billions of users. And because software has more of an organic quality than traditional hardware, managing hundreds or thousands of changes that need to go into the system over the course of a month or quarter is non-trivial. People that think software is trivial are the same ones that fall for the idea that anything can be quickly refactored and redesigned and nothing will break and everything will go smoothly. It's just not true.

Most human beings can handle, at most, 5 to 9 variables in their head at once. Software systems grow to immense complexity of thousands to millions of variables, with various runtimes, databases, caching layers, frameworks, libraries, coding styles accrued over multiple decades in some cases, data aggregation pipelines, dozens to hundreds of APIs with their own unique interfaces, etc. It is a constant battle against entropy, which happens inevitably in such systems.

Meanwhile, there isn't a single modern "real engineer" who doesn't get their daily work done thanks to multiple software programs supporting their own productivity so much that they can replace what used to be teams of dozens to hundreds of assistants, techs, engineers, and other various human support systems. They draw lines on AutoCAD that automatically compute moments of inertia, shaft calcs, bill of materials, etc. Then they take that file output and zap it over Slack instantly to their colleague who works from home hundreds of miles away to get their feedback on it. Behind all of that is a team of software engineers and product devs that not only has to understand the constraints of their own technical systems, but the technical needs of their engineering clientele.

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