Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#201

Post by kristjansson » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 3:32 PM UTC

tjpnz wrote: post #158

drstewart wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe CEOs and executives don’t need to pay themselves such absurd salaries, that would probably help Can you show your work here? Assume Amazon executives cut their salaries to 0, how much extra would they be able to pay workers?

Everyone would get 213 dollars a year extra if just their CEO didn't receive any compensation. Amazon employs approximately 1 million people in the United States and Andy Jassy received 213 million total comp in 2021.

That ~200m (really 61000 shares) vests over 10 years though. So really ~20 bucks per employee per year.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#202

Post by hedora » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 3:32 PM UTC

0n0n0m0uz wrote: post #109

People nowadays have no memory of the decades of struggle, sacrifice to win the rights we currently have. Unions are the most effective tool the working class has to affect change where they spend a majority of their waking life. No wonder why its demonized at every possible instance.

They used to be a tool to help the working class in the US.

My parents had good experience with their unions. Every interaction every person I know in my generation has had with them (CWA, UAW, teamsters, railway unions, etc, etc.) has been strongly negative.

The Amazon workers should form a new union if they want representation.

Cards from existing corrupt national unions are definitely a trap. Once enough people sign, they will swoop in to extract dues, bribe politicians on unrelated issues, and alternate between sabotaging Amazon's work environment and negotiating away whatever current benefits the workers get.

People that are good at negotiating union politics will somehow become unfirable, and just stop bothering to do their jobs.

If history repeats itself, the union reps will then work with Amaozn to create an underclass of ununionizable jobs and hire people at minimum wage to do the old $18/hr work, while the union cronies "supervise" for $25+/hr.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#203

Post by galleywest200 » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 3:33 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #172

rubyn00bie wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re saying conflicting things, Amazon “leads raising wages” to you but then “it’s not possible to hire X at rate Y so people have to pay more.” Amazon has to pay more because their jobs are shit. They aren’t doing anything to raise wages they’re just trying to get people’s asses in the door. I’m sort of shocked you linked to the department of labor’s historical page as some sort of proof of your idea. I can guaran…

Amazon rose wages and have some the highest warehouse worker wages around, to the point where they are creating upward pressure on wages in other industries. Their jobs also are super stressful and burn people out. These things are not contradictory. Anecdotally, in support of the comment you are replying to, Starbucks poached our babysitter. $25/hour is the market rate for babysitters around here, and $100-$150 a ni…

This seems like a poor comparison. Your babysitter left a part time job (100/25 = 4 hours of work per day) for a full time one and can now afford a car.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#204

Post by mhoad » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 3:34 PM UTC

briHass wrote: post #183

koolba wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, who the hell is in the teachers union if not teachers? Professional bureaucrats. Teachers unions in public schools are the worst. They hold our childrens’ futures hostage and get paid out by politicians buying votes, who pass the bill to the next generation.

Not to mention that most state/local teachers unions are branches of the NEA/AFT, two of the largest unions in the country. Also, two of the largest political contributors, to strictly left-leaning politicians. Neither are shy about admitting that they support Democrat policies exclusively.

To be fair have you seen republican policies towards teachers and education in general. Of course nobody would ever intentionally pick that for themselves and their profession.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#205

Post by yojo » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

mswift42 wrote: post #120

GuB-42 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, that means less for the executives and shareholders. They may have to sell some of their properties, oh dear. Is it what usually happens when workers unionize? It seems like most of the times, the result is a higher price for the customer, at least when things go well.

> It seems like most of the times, the result is a higher price for the customer, at least when things go well. Can you substantiate this claim? With the vast majority of goods the price is set by the market, i.e. higher wages would indeed result in a smaller profit margin and not in a higher price.

It could be either. In most cases it is likely both (shrinking margins, higher prices).

The price is determined by the market. But there’s a demand curve. There are many prices that an item could sell at, with varying numbers of buyers at each price.

In a highly competitive market, the price should be driven down close to the cost of production. This allows the most people to buy at the lowest possible price, at the expense of retailer margins.

Amazon probably has the best cost structure of online retailers. Which means in many cases they are setting the floor on the price. If their labor costs go up enough to wipe out their margins, their prices must go up, or they must exit the market for highly competitive items. With less competition, other retailers have more leeway to increase prices.

As a society we may decide it is worth paying more for goods to ensure a fair living wage and safe working conditions. That doesn’t sound unreasonable. But to assume you can get that without increasing prices is naive.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#206

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 3:37 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #189

lotsofpulp wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what their 10-K filings say.

They are incentivized to hide investments as operating expenses for tax reasons, which muddles the picture.

Source? What are the incentives? Why do the most highly valued companies in the world report much higher profit margins?

I would need a good reason to believe the executives and owners of retail businesses do not want to report higher profit margins.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#207

Post by peyton » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

resoluteteeth wrote: post #173

imgabe wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What employment contract? They’re at will

> What employment contract? They’re at will Despite the colloquial use of the word "contract," there is generally always going to be an employment contract (agreement) in place. Similarly, people colloquially talk about having a "contract" for things like cellphones meaning a fixed term, but there is always an actual "contract" (agreement) with the terms of the service regardless of whether the plan has a fixed term…

Contract and agreement are not synonyms. Contracts require consideration.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#208

Post by enraged_camel » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

smugma wrote: post #134

photochemsyn wrote: post #10

Realistically an Amazon-wide union is the only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China, without having any cross-border capital flow penalities (neoliberal globalism in a nutshell), then the major employers like Amazon and Walmart are going to have to double their w…

Amazon has significantly increased wages. They were at the forefront of the $15 wage, more than double the federal minimum wage. I think at the time Walmart was at $10 or $11. I live in very liberal SF but outside of my bubble, I hear people complain that it’s not possible to hire Nannies/housecleaners/employees anymore when Amazon and Starbucks pay $18/hr. Seems like the answer is easy: pay them more or make the job…

You are right that Amazon has raised wages, but only by a fraction of what they will have to if their workers unionize.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#209

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 3:41 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #172

rubyn00bie wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re saying conflicting things, Amazon “leads raising wages” to you but then “it’s not possible to hire X at rate Y so people have to pay more.” Amazon has to pay more because their jobs are shit. They aren’t doing anything to raise wages they’re just trying to get people’s asses in the door. I’m sort of shocked you linked to the department of labor’s historical page as some sort of proof of your idea. I can guaran…

Amazon rose wages and have some the highest warehouse worker wages around, to the point where they are creating upward pressure on wages in other industries. Their jobs also are super stressful and burn people out. These things are not contradictory. Anecdotally, in support of the comment you are replying to, Starbucks poached our babysitter. $25/hour is the market rate for babysitters around here, and $100-$150 a ni…

> Starbucks poached our babysitter. $25/hour is the market rate for babysitters around here

Seems like $25/hour was the market rate.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#210

Post by xhkkffbf » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 3:42 PM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #181

smugma wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has significantly increased wages. They were at the forefront of the $15 wage, more than double the federal minimum wage. I think at the time Walmart was at $10 or $11. I live in very liberal SF but outside of my bubble, I hear people complain that it’s not possible to hire Nannies/housecleaners/employees anymore when Amazon and Starbucks pay $18/hr. Seems like the answer is easy: pay them more or make the job…

Yes, a big chunk of the labor shortages in hospitality, child care, etc. we’ve seen the last two years is a direct result of Amazon hiring lots and lots of people. And as shitty as the conditions of those jobs may be, they’re often still better than where they’re coming from. Sticking labels to boxes and moving them around a warehouse all day may still be better than dealing with handsy bar hounds or screaming childr…

While I like the idea of unions, I can say that they've been a disappointment in my career. One of my colleagues desperately needed the protection of the union at work when he got caught up in office politics. Some of his rivals for a big promotion got him accused of something that had nothing to do with work. It was all cancel culture. The union, though, didn't back him up at all. They make a big show about somehow fighting management for the workers, but in this case they were happy to help the management screw the guy over and end his career. Sure they're a union, but they're humans and sometimes they'll be aligned against you.