How to set junior employees up for success in remote • Hacker News Board

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#201

Post by prepend » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

sweetheart wrote: post #168

lettergram wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think anyone who can’t work well remote, on average, will not be your top performers anyway. What I mean by that — as a manager and one of the senior engineers, I had insight across our organization to projects and employee performance. Those who thrived being remote were those who already were the top performers. Those who were followers; who lacked discipline, failed faster and more obviously. Most software engin…

Pair programming is a fantastic tool. Why the snark?

I like pair programming and think I learned a ton by being the junior “driving” while the senior was “navigating.”

But I’ve also had some nightmare scenarios with people who just massively slack and do nothing. I worked with someone who wanted to “navigate” in 10/10 sessions and never said anything. They just watched me do stuff, didn’t respond to questions, didn’t work on docs, didn’t look stuff up. It was weird.

Mismatches like this made me eventually stop doing it as the team ended up separating out to pairs of superstars and pairs who did nothing. And it demoralized people.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#202

Post by Ultimatt » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

Its worse than this. Companies going fully remote are less likely to even engage with the idea of having juniors because of this gap.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#203

Post by Hammershaft » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

seper8 wrote: post #62

The only reason I got hired at MAGMA is because I was able to apply & work remote. I am pretty introverted + slightly autistic (not self diagnosed). I do a lot of customer facing work too, which I would never endure when not working remotely. But working remote means I can just turn off when I'm not feeling so great. Presenting is a lot easier... Approaching people, also, a lot easier. Just send them a message on sla…

> I am pretty introverted + slightly autistic (not self diagnosed). I do a lot of customer facing work too, which I would never endure when not working remotely.

> I think this remote work has equalized the playing field in terms of attractiveness & height aswell, as those qualities are far less visible when interviewing remotely. Wouldn't be surprised if we see the average height of high paid workers decline due to this.

This is a great point and shines a light on all kinds of equitable advantages of remote that are possible in the long term.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#204

Post by prepend » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

shmatt wrote: post #140

lettergram wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think anyone who can’t work well remote, on average, will not be your top performers anyway. What I mean by that — as a manager and one of the senior engineers, I had insight across our organization to projects and employee performance. Those who thrived being remote were those who already were the top performers. Those who were followers; who lacked discipline, failed faster and more obviously. Most software engin…

I agree, and have to wonder what would happen if pre-remote some researcher tried to break it down to 'Computer Science Graduate' and 'Taught themselves on CodeAcademy' I would bet the CS graduate is having a much easier time self-learning at home than the no-degree person who usually stops peoples work 12-15 times a day to get them to explain concepts or show them around the code, again...

> I would bet the CS graduate is having a much easier time self-learning at home than the no-degree person who usually stops peoples work 12-15 times a day to get them to explain concepts or show them around the code, again...

I am a self taught and am pretty good at looking stuff up and figuring it out on my own, especially stuff that isn’t even in a manual. I figured this was pretty common since self taught is sort of forced to develop this skill.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#205

Post by HelloNurse » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #98

lozenge wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feeling valued is necessary for a junior. They deserve the same three monitors everybody else gets.

>They deserve the same three monitors everybody else gets. I wouldn't make a strong statement like that. As a junior, you're just excited to be there, and gain experience. If the company policy is that you don't get the top-of-the-line hardware until you reach a certain professional milestone and this policy is applied equally then it's not the end of the world.

It's the not-even-beginning of the world. Why work for someone so cheap? Why fight for a monitor, where at a competitor you could fight fort a raise?

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#206

Post by fileeditview » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

l30n4da5 wrote: post #176

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

no it isn't.

It is a claim without proof which discredits people failing in a remote job. Comes pretty close to an insult TBH. Considering that success and failure in remote jobs does depend a lot on the team, the organization, the planning etc.. not only the person itself.

Also e.g. this sentence by GP raised red flags for me:

> Most software engineers produce more effort than they’re worth and skate by with meetings, “pair programming”, etc

Let's leave meetings out because I agree that too many meetings are bad but pair programming can be a useful tool, especially to transfer knowledge. And that MOST SWEs produce more effort than they're worth.. lol.. what a blanket statement.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#207

Post by treis » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

verve_rat wrote: post #111

treis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO it's turnover that's the problem. Companies get engineers for an average of like 24 months and it might be even less for junior employees. Taking the time to train someone up doesn't make as much sense when you're not going to get return on your investment.

I'll add to that, the motivation to mentor someone really goes away the third or fourth time you see them hit the inflection point of the usefulness curve... just to be hired by someone else because $current_employer can't find an extra few grand to keep them. I don't like training and mentoring people. I'm pretty good at it, but I try my damnest to avoid it now.

You should still do it. Those people leaving and going to other companies is good for you individually as it builds your network.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#208

Post by barrysteve » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 2:24 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #130

l30n4da5 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like you didn't even read my post, just looked for the hook to drop in and proclaim your superiority. Seemed to me it was just a counter-point to your post. If you don't have anything productive to add, that's fine, but resorting to personal attacks doesn't really make your argument/viewpoint look better. From my own personal experience, I'd mirror what the previous poster said. Most of the top performers in a…

Quoted post unavailable.

Yeah his post could be interpreted that way, especially by the open topic about "personality types" and your implication that your better jobs were in person.

But I doubt he meant it that way. Some people are so used to talking in impersonal generalities it is assumed to be an impersonal statement, even in oddly personal situations.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#209

Post by MAGZine » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 2:24 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #98

lozenge wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feeling valued is necessary for a junior. They deserve the same three monitors everybody else gets.

>They deserve the same three monitors everybody else gets. I wouldn't make a strong statement like that. As a junior, you're just excited to be there, and gain experience. If the company policy is that you don't get the top-of-the-line hardware until you reach a certain professional milestone and this policy is applied equally then it's not the end of the world.

You proffer that people should be fine being second-rate citizens so long as there is a policy outlining their second-ratedness?

This is not the star-studded retention policy you think it is.

Re: How to set junior employees up for success in remote

#210

Post by upupandup » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 2:25 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #46

This is not a surprise to me. I think it also applies to some people who are senior and new on a project or team. Or people with a more synchronous working style. I think remote has been toxic to productivity in all sorts of companies and for all sorts of people. I think there's in general a "personality type" that does really well with remote in a certain kind of job and thrives with fairly asynchronous disconnected…

I just don't find this argument convincing. The tasks does not change because its remote, rather the costs have gone up to hire junior developers while costs to increase producitivity in existing devs have dropped significantly.

Namely, github copilot, which removed a lot of "hey junior can you write a class to talk to this CRUD api" to "hey github generate snippets of boilerplate code that I can tweak to my exact needs"

Lot of companies are realizing that their existing senior developers are now armed with this amazing tool and that its leading to faster turnarounds. The door appears to be closing for entry positions that used to take in high school drop outs, code bootcamp grads or single moms.