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A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

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201–210 of 296 posts

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#201

Disclaimer: I made some contributions to Fuchsia and I am clearly biased. I am not sure why there's so much negativity around Fuchsia. From a technical point of view it's finally a serious attempt to do something new in the OS space. It might not be the right and perfect answer, but it might introduce new paradigms and maybe some fork of the project might be able to provide additional benefits for end users down the…

> I am not sure why there's so much negativity around Fuchsia.

Change is quite scary for some judging from the responses and there is finally a serious new OS that abandons the legacy Unix model and gives a refreshing approach to doing something new with support for only modern architectures.

To see it already running Chrome, Flutter, and being deployed on a Nest Hub without the users noticing tells me it is likely going to be the base of ChromeOS first and then it will replace Android in a couple of years with all Flutter and Android apps all running on Day 1 on the first phone running Fuchsia.

Won't be surprised to see Fuchsia on Chromebooks.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#202
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you said why, you'd be less likely to get downvoted. Hand-waving assertions of "that dreck" are not well judged.

Anybody who can look at the reproduced code and not recoil in disgust will be unlikely to understand a detailed criticism. Just read it!

I'd encourage you to have a go at explaining nonetheless. I'm sure there are at least a few critiques you have which many here would miss, even if they are competent. There's always value in code review, no?

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#203
post #73
post #65

The objective of computer security seems to have shifted from preventing someone else from running unauthoirzed software on your computer to preventing you from running unauthorized software on your computer. I would not describe this as security.

I would guess you have never worked as a technical suppport for your family’s computers? Because even if I very much understand your point, not being able to run untrusted code absolutely is a security advancement in certain situations. It is SO refreshing and liberating to be able to say: Do whatever you want with it, it’s very hard to damage on the software side.

what kind of person who comments on hackernews doesnt do unpaid tech support for family members?

yes, i do, and the thing that i mostly find is people paying for "legitimate products" that their computers can do for free with essentially no additional hassle. Apple and google arent in the business of protecting your naive family members, they are in the business of monopolizing the exploitation of your naive family members.

Just yesterday i discovered that jpeg compression is broken in preview, and has been for years. The top result for what to do about it on the macos subreddit is to pay for image editing software.

i suspect you of arguing in bad faith.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's getting screwed up? It's cheaper and easier than ever to acquire a wide-open computer platform. There are also more of them than ever. There's just also a couple new categories of computing appliance—which is nowhere near being a new thing—that weren't around before.

> There are also more of them than ever. This is super misleading. There's only slightly more wide-open platforms now than there ever were, but there's way, way more locked-down ones. > There's just also a couple new categories of computing appliance A couple?

> A couple?

Yeah, I'm counting phones and tablets as two categories. But I'm also being really generous on how old something can be and still be "new" (15 years is quite a while, in tech) and not counting those as just an iteration (admittedly, a big one) on PalmOS devices and such. They're also much closer to being general-purpose devices than most other appliance-type machines (consoles, dedicated set-top boxes, et c.), occupying more of a middle ground between the two.

I suppose you could add smart watches and make it three. Set-top boxes are at least 23 years old (TiVo), so stretch even generous definitions of "new", and we had closed-source non-user-modifiable DVD players well before that.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#205
Something that I haven't seen brought up yet is the "weird C++ vtable layout." This is actually the "relative vtable layout" that's first described here: https://bugs.llvm.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26723, and is usable in clang via the -fexperimental-relative-c++-abi-vtables option.

The basic idea is that you don't need to waste a whole 64 bits for vtable entry, especially since you can usually assume that code within the same DSO will be within 32 bits of each other. So, instead, you do a 32-bit offset from a known address (the vtable's address) to get the function pointer, and in the rare case you need a cross-DSO entry, just emit a thunk for the symbol that's in the same DSO to get an address within 32 bits.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#206
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You’re comment and a sibling both express that these messages are off-putting to international audiences? Non-American distinct from both of them here: They're right. >black people definitely experience racism elsewhere Persuambly you think BLM is a generic "Racism Bad" message, so 3 things to say about this 1- BLM is not a generic "Racism Bad" message. It's the name of a movement whose leaders used donor money to a…

I do feel that BLM is a worthy cause to support. This is mainly because I feel the movement can be seen separately from any formal organizations or individual people. I understand how you may disagree. Regardless, the real disagreement seems to be in where it is appropriate to represent the movements you believe in. Even granting that a technical document page may not be the best place for such advertising, I still d…

>then surely it should be at worst unsightly?

What me and other people are trying to get across to you, is that you only feel this way because you support the cause.

The practice of filling every place and institution with your partisan beliefs is a sign of disrespect, essentially a power move. "You're here to read up on an OS, but joke on you, you actually can't escape the all-pervasive hand of my religion. Here's some propaganda diet before you read anything".

To know what that feels, imagine if every time a mainland Chinese scientist published an academic paper they were forced to write at the end "Long Live The CCP" with big bold letters. Or imagine if every time a Muslim scientist published a paper they must write "In The Name Of Allah, God Of All Creation" in the beginning. Etc... Can you see why this is ridiculous to a non-communist or a non-Muslim ?

Why is this ridiculous belief-signalling an expression of power ? 2 reasons :

1- Like I said above, it asserts existence in a space where its competitors don't. No Christian, Jew or Hindu declares their religion in the academic papers they author, it feels fair that Muslims also shouldn't, it's like an unspoken agreement on keeping Academia free of an irrelevant controversial subject that gets people riled up and generates more heat than light. When Muslims (in the hypothetical world) violate this, it's a unilateral violation of the agreement that signals power and superiority. "Rules Don't Apply To Us". It's a fighting stance.

In the concrete case we're discussing here, only progressive tech companies signal their beliefs in this vulgar way, no conservative tech firm have ever put "Blue Lives Matter" or "Make America Great Again" on their technical docs, although there are tens of millions of people who believe just as sincerly as you that those causes represent worthy and moral goals. The reason sane well-adjusted people refrain from expressing politics and religion in workplaces is because of common sense social protocols and unspoken consensus, when you break those, you're deliberately asserting power and inviting challenge.

2- It's probably forced. Just like the vast majority of Chinese scientists or Muslim scientists would probably do the above hypothetical signalling out of fear (of being labelled a traitor and a heretic, respectively), the vast majority of people in progressive-dominated social bubbles probably virtue-signal out of fear, rather than any geniune conviction. It's morally disgusting to force people to express beliefs they don't actually hold, or hold in lesser intensity than being forced to express. It's tyranny 101, straight from 1984.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#207
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvote all you like, it is bad code all the same.

If you said why, you'd be less likely to get downvoted. Hand-waving assertions of "that dreck" are not well judged.

Speaking just for myself, after perusing Fuchsia source, the code seems eye-wateringly "clever," pretty much everywhere.

I'm doubtful many people would be able to read it or contribute to it very effectively.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#208

The people who work on fuchsia are very good engineers - I’ve worked with many of them in person. But the project itself has always been a staff retention project. It only existed to keep said engineers from going to a competitor. I don’t know how any understanding of fuchsia is possible without this crucial fact

So I have, this isn't true except in a facile way—"it felt to me like they would have left otherwise." It shipped, in an important way.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are also more of them than ever. This is super misleading. There's only slightly more wide-open platforms now than there ever were, but there's way, way more locked-down ones. > There's just also a couple new categories of computing appliance A couple?

> A couple? Yeah, I'm counting phones and tablets as two categories. But I'm also being really generous on how old something can be and still be "new" (15 years is quite a while, in tech) and not counting those as just an iteration (admittedly, a big one) on PalmOS devices and such. They're also much closer to being general-purpose devices than most other appliance-type machines (consoles, dedicated set-top boxes, et…

Phones and tablets are just locked down computers, not appliances. Do you want your laptop to be like that? Why not? Why is that any different than your tablet? Spoiler: It's not.

Some people only have access to tablets and phones. Let them have the freedom we had to create something. With that freedom, maybe one of them grows up and creates the next Apple, only without the cruelty and greed.

On top of that, it would reduce waste.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#210
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, accidentally sharing a capability is a leak. If I accidentally printed out a capability it would be 'leaked' and anyone who reads that capability now has obtained it an dcan use it. > you can in principle forge a URL in a way that you could never forge a file handle. Maybe it would be better to not talk about fs apis, because they're not really capability based, so I suspect that's the confusion. The point is th…

I'm specifically talking about Fuchsia and other kernel-based capabilities here. You fundamentally cannot print out that kind of capability in any way that matters- the only thing that determines whether a process has it is the table in the kernel, not whether it can produce a particular bit pattern. In this sense, fs APIs are a fine example, as long as you keep the ls/.. caveats in mind. If you have a file descripto…

I think the short version is that you're just not talking about capabilities.
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