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What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

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Re: What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

#201

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The 1800s were brutal everywhere, but slavery is an inherently corrupt system. I can certainly imagine merciful white masters who genuinely cared for their slaves, but slavery is such a cut and dry obvious violation of human rights that it's not worth considering. A single person being considered, even in the most benign technical sense, property is an atrocity. We can and perhaps should commemorate those who worked…

I agree largely with your first paragraph! The world is a better place if people don't have total coercive power over others, self determination all the way!(obviously that statement lends to the subject and the great irony of the south). Long ignored.. the last 155 years is injustice made my the winners! Jim Crow laws were invented and wide spread in the north(1938 massachussets) before they went south.

Oif you know anything about the old south, white families penned themselves to the land they were on and married those in litteral proximities. Your son was going to marry the neighbors daughter. Thats why they were so defensive of thier land. It had been held closely for generations. Your using modern stanards of moving around constatly and marrying based on 60's free love standards. This was also not too uncommon of a stance made by west africans in their bative lands. Thats why africa is dense of language families, territorial familial rule. The anglo/Irish(ulster etc..)were very similiar in that regard. A story? Lincoln married a prominent kentucky slave holding white woman and sold her slaves for profit. Robert E lee was the executor of his wifes estate, and followed her fathers bequeathing of his slaves freedoms.

Re: What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

#202

Why do you call it a civil war? In a civil war two parties fight for dominance over the country - England’s and Russian’s civil wars, more than two hundred years apart, are great example. In that war, South did not want to dominate North but secede. It seems calling the conflict “a Civil war” just follows Northern narrative.

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Re: What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

#203
post #37

The Civil War in America absolutely dominated the British national conversation, especially in the early years of the war. Politicians followed the conflict closely, and there were even several debates in Parliament over British policy toward the conflict. Frequently discussed was a line that a lot of Americans would recognize today, of "when should Britain get involved??" because of the destructiveness of the confli…

One of my ancestors was a British aristocrat and tory MP who was so vocal in his opposition to appeasing the American colonists in any way at all that even King George raised an eyebrow.

His total conviction led him to purchase a commission as major of Grenadiers in the 20th Foot, and set off for The Colonies, where he was promptly shot at The Battle of Saratoga and then taken prisoner.

Because he was a wounded officer and a minor noble, his wife was permitted to come and pick him up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dyke_Acland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Harriet_Acland

Re: What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

#204
post #100
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be understood that the british empire was at the peak of economic dependence on the raw material coming from the "new world" at the onset of the civil war; in particular, cotton exports for consumption by british textile mills [1]. > By the late 1850s, cotton grown in the United States accounted for 77 percent of the 800 million pounds of cotton consumed in Britain. It also accounted for 90 percent of the 1…

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“Lost cause” theories are considered the actual revisionism by the vast majority of historians, due to the many pieces of strong evidence supporting slavery being the major issue driving the war.

Let’s start with the articles of secession. Ctrl-F on these and you’ll find “slave” mentioned more than 80 times. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declarati...

There were the journals of the actual soldiers fighting the war, who frequently mentioned how slavery was their motivation for fighting the war.

There was the intense focus on slavery leading up to the war, like a slave state being admitted for every free state. There was the Caning of Summers where a man was nearly beaten to death on the senate floor over a very rude speech he gave over slavery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_of_Charles_Sumner

There were the northerners coming into slave states and inciting slave rebellions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist)

In general, the idea that slavery wasn’t a motivator of the war was mostly pitched to Britain who was mostly abolitionist at the time, but overwhelmingly it was mostly pitched after the war had already concluded. Before and during the war the confederates were quite clear their motivation for waging the war was primarily slavery. They were very open about this, which is why historians tend to be doubtful about a theory which seemingly was only ever popularized to make the confederates save face. Historians aren’t keen to go “oh these people who mentioned slavery over and over when they were seceding didn’t care about slavery that was just a prank and I know how they really felt, checkmate Lincolnites!”

Nobody doubts that economics weren’t a major factor in the war, but slavery was discussed far far far more often than tariffs. Tariffs are mostly brought up nowadays because they’re more palatable, not because of the strong evidence the average southerner or southern leader was fighting for tariffs.

>Lincoln did nothing to free the slaves when the war started

True. Lincoln’s initial goal was to keep the union together, whereas the confederates were fighting for slavery. Keep in mind the Civil war was by far the deadliest war in US history, I believe more Americans died in that war than every subsequent war combined. Ending slavery is a noble goal, so is preventing the 620k deaths that happened.

It was only later on, largely due to the aforementioned British pressure that he gave his emancipation proclamation largely as a strategic move to prevent Europe from entering the war since after the proclamation their entrance into the war would be seen as supportive of slavery. However, Lincoln did want to end slavery eventually and many in the union fought for the sake of abolition. Note how a civil war was started soon after Lincoln was elected with the secessionists repeatedly mentioning slavery, his support of abolition was no secret.

Re: What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

#205

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So your big criticisim of Nehemiah is that he is 1. He is a weirdo? 2. I can list more names who think as I do than I can count to the contrary?

No, I think my criticism has more to do with the fact that Adams felt like the antebellum south was much to be admired for keeping its negroes off the street at night, much as advocates for the south apparently (here's those pesky historians again) were happy to point out the low rates of rape and sexual assault against white women in the south --- who, after all, would risk imprisonment assaulting a white woman, whe…

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Re: What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your big criticisim of Nehemiah is that he is 1. He is a weirdo? 2. I can list more names who think as I do than I can count to the contrary?

No, I think my criticism has more to do with the fact that Adams felt like the antebellum south was much to be admired for keeping its negroes off the street at night, much as advocates for the south apparently (here's those pesky historians again) were happy to point out the low rates of rape and sexual assault against white women in the south --- who, after all, would risk imprisonment assaulting a white woman, whe…

No post body was provided.

Re: What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I think my criticism has more to do with the fact that Adams felt like the antebellum south was much to be admired for keeping its negroes off the street at night, much as advocates for the south apparently (here's those pesky historians again) were happy to point out the low rates of rape and sexual assault against white women in the south --- who, after all, would risk imprisonment assaulting a white woman, whe…

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It happened so often that Alabama had a law forbidding the sale of children before the age of 5.

Re: What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I think my criticism has more to do with the fact that Adams felt like the antebellum south was much to be admired for keeping its negroes off the street at night, much as advocates for the south apparently (here's those pesky historians again) were happy to point out the low rates of rape and sexual assault against white women in the south --- who, after all, would risk imprisonment assaulting a white woman, whe…

Quoted post unavailable.

... of white slave owners raping Black slaves? That's your comeback?

Are you sure you want to keep talking about this?

Re: What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

#209
post #37

The Civil War in America absolutely dominated the British national conversation, especially in the early years of the war. Politicians followed the conflict closely, and there were even several debates in Parliament over British policy toward the conflict. Frequently discussed was a line that a lot of Americans would recognize today, of "when should Britain get involved??" because of the destructiveness of the confli…

Maybe this is nitpicking but I suspect the motive was less "the destructiveness of the conflict" and more a chance to balkanize the US permanently.

Re: What did British officers think of the American civil war as it was happening?

#210
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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I’m sorry but this is profoundly and aggressively incorrect. The civil war was not reframed after the fact to be about slavery, quite the opposite in fact. The ‘reframing’ is in fact what you’ve tried to assert, in that it was supposedly a matter of economics rather than slavery (though of course other factors were certainly at play). It’s part of the ‘lost cause’ narrative furthered by the southern states after the…

We can go ahead and cast it as an economic conflict if we really want -- the conflict between a system based on industrialization and an alternate one based on slavery. But slavery is, as you say, most certainly central to the conflict.
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