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EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

politico.eu

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Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#201

Post by deburo »

FreeHugs wrote: post #8

One reason the EU missed out on the internet is our unlimited willingness to be regulated. And we keep piling more and more bureaucracy on top of it. This only cements the power of US big tech like Google and Facebook. And it sets the stage for the next big applications of the web all being build outside the EU as well. Here in Germany, everyone is afraid to start a web startup. And if they do, they spend endless amo…

>If you are in the EU, try out surfing the web via a non EU IP once. It is an eye-opening experience. No cookie banners! Only Europeans have to deal with those.

I'm in Qc, Canada and I see them very often. Is it only checking for a US IP, and everything else gets the banner?

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#202

Post by andrew_ »

ericmay wrote: post #166
Vespasian wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same thought. Apple makes great hardware and the main thing that was holding me back from getting one was their heavy handed approach on what applications I am allowed to install on my device and from what source. If this works I would probably go for it.

I’m the opposite. I buy an iPhone specifically because I want a locked-down device. World is about to get a little worse on this front.

There are those of us that would prefer to be protected, and those of us that would prefer to be free to make those decisions for ourselves. I've been an Android user for over a decade because of the latter.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#203

Post by andrew_ »

can16358p wrote: post #28

While I think big tech needs to be controlled, I think this is the wrong approach. This will slow down development by being forced to implement interop where they shouldn't be forced to IMO, and will confuse less savvy users (e.g. "Why can't I send this $platform_native_content to Bob but can send perfectly to Alice in the same app?"). Controlling entities' presence within the public (the Internet) is one thing, forc…

We've been living with similar limitations for a very long time now. See: blue versus green SMS bubbles. As an Android user, iOS-sent SMS/MMS means lower quality photos, extremely low quality video, and I get "So and so loved this message" instead of a heart emoji. I believe people will adapt and recognize differences quickly.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#204

Post by ericmay »

arunkant wrote: post #200
ericmay wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea but you except and promote them in other areas of your life. Even countries are walled gardens. I don’t think third parties really add value either. It’s just going to result in a bunch of spam and scams, with us losing out on privacy features and convenience.

Don't use third parties then. Problem solved!!

Don't use an iPhone then. Problem solved!!

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#205

Post by andrew_ »

deburo wrote: post #201
FreeHugs wrote: post #8

One reason the EU missed out on the internet is our unlimited willingness to be regulated. And we keep piling more and more bureaucracy on top of it. This only cements the power of US big tech like Google and Facebook. And it sets the stage for the next big applications of the web all being build outside the EU as well. Here in Germany, everyone is afraid to start a web startup. And if they do, they spend endless amo…

>If you are in the EU, try out surfing the web via a non EU IP once. It is an eye-opening experience. No cookie banners! Only Europeans have to deal with those. I'm in Qc, Canada and I see them very often. Is it only checking for a US IP, and everything else gets the banner?

In the U.S. and I'd seen so many of them that I have an extension installed specifically to hide them while browsing.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#206

Post by zaik »

spiffytech wrote: post #183
hackerfromthefu wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah sure, but messaging apps don't need new features - they need to simply send messages to each other. Walled gardens suck as a user experience for messaging apps.

> messaging apps don't need new features - they need to simply send messages to each other. Messaging apps have evolved in very pro-user ways over the years. Reactions, threads, voice/video/screenshare, and more are all popular with users. Stuff that we didn't have at all in the AIM era, or maybe only had on one chat platform. And under the hood, I read that an important reason everyone left XMPP is it fundamentally…

> but that means your phone's radio can never enter low power mode, hurting battery life.

This problem has been solved by https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0352.html

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#207

Post by ericmay »

Mindwipe wrote: post #197
ericmay wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it will once it happens on iOS. Large companies like Facebook (not picking on Meta, just an easy example) really don’t want to follow Apple’s privacy guidelines, don’t want to ask users for permission to track their location, and don’t want to tell users what info they gather and how it’s used. Once Apple has to allow third-party app stores, many major software companies will either create their own App Store (gr…

> It’ll also long-term enable more dark patterns. Oh you signed up for this $14.99/month app? Well gotta call if you want to unsubscribe. Hell maybe even have to send a letter! The same EU legislation explicitly bans this. > Any third-party App Store that’s not a complete scam will be forced to comply with any exact rules that Apple has to. There’s no difference. This is a misrepresentation. China's worst fear is the…

> The same EU legislation explicitly bans this.

Companies will find work-arounds as they always do.

> This is a misrepresentation.

It's an opinion, not a misrepresentation. I'm not misrepresenting anything.

> China's worst fear is the lack of choke points for application distribution. Once peer to peer distribution of applications happens without central distributors then their ability to lock down protests will take a significant hit.

Practically speaking though, who will create app stores that will be "safe", and functional? Most people will use a few major app stores (maybe as many as 6, as few as 2) because they are positive feedback loops. Any major company operating one of these will have enough exposure to China that they'll comply with local laws, as they do now. If a company doesn't have exposure that the CCP can leverage, they'll just ban the app store from ever entering the market. Unless of course you think that we'll wind up with hundreds of app stores, like "Bob's Great Apps", but then you have a much worse problem which is the entire ecosystem has turned into a pile of dogshit. Maybe globally there could be 50-100 app stores, but they'll be localized.

If what you're saying is true, that China wants choke points, then why is the Great Firewall so successful? Wouldn't the distributed Internet, and VPNs, and other web-based peer-to-peer applications win out?

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#208

Post by emptysongglass »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #175
emptysongglass wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are declaring things as facts but my experience is yes startups do spend huge capital on ensuring GDPR compliance and neurotically worry over it. I also have experience from two start-up scale-ups that many clients are saying we won't work with you if you use a US Big Cloud. The EU alternatives are much worse and this causes lots of developer waste now ensuring the platform runs as well on the Big Cloud as it doe…

Yes, I am declaring these things as facts based on my own experience with European startups – yours may vary. So far, the approach has been miles away from "spending huge capital" or "neurotically worrying", and much more "just following the regulations and getting on with it". I also have experience from two start-up scale-ups that many clients are saying we won't work with you if you use a US Big Cloud Yeah, I've n…

I'm confused: your Hacker News blurb says you're the head of a UK based company. Where are you getting your direct experience from?

This is going to sound more aggressive than it is but it doesn't look like you're qualified to be declaring these kinds of facts on the realities faced by EU businesses.

I'm still working at one of the two companies I mentioned, in Denmark. It's a very real problem for us right now. And I think you're understating the effort required to launch a competitive cloud, especially given the regulatory hurdles of the EU.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#209

Post by spiffytech »

zaik wrote: post #206
spiffytech wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> messaging apps don't need new features - they need to simply send messages to each other. Messaging apps have evolved in very pro-user ways over the years. Reactions, threads, voice/video/screenshare, and more are all popular with users. Stuff that we didn't have at all in the AIM era, or maybe only had on one chat platform. And under the hood, I read that an important reason everyone left XMPP is it fundamentally…

> but that means your phone's radio can never enter low power mode, hurting battery life. This problem has been solved by https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0352.html

> Version 1.0.0 (2020-10-14)

Glad to see it's being addressed, but:

- The proposal is stable, but not finalized

- 13 years is a long time to wait for a solution (iPhone debuted in 2007, got apps in 2008)

- Plus however long it takes for implementations to adopt this

- Plus whether they adopt it at all, since this is a protocol extension and not a protocol requirement. The XEP requires client-server cooperation, which means the clients and all servers the user connects to have to implement this to see the benefit.

Re: EU negotiators agree new rules to rein in tech giants

#210

Post by dane-pgp »

ericmay wrote: post #204
arunkant wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't use third parties then. Problem solved!!

Don't use an iPhone then. Problem solved!!

It's difficult for an iPhone user to notice that apps they might want aren't available (unless they search the web and find references to an Android-only app that does what they want), but, even more so, it's very expensive for users to buy a new Android phone just to use that one app.

Equally, when someone is considering buying a phone, they are unlikely to compare the lists of apps available for each platform when making their decision, just as car buyers don't look at the levels of tailpipe emissions when comparing possible cars. In such situations we accept that the government can intervene to prevent socially negative outcomes, even if it means increasing the costs (or decreasing the profit margins) for companies.

In any case, the problem isn't just the switching costs for users who discover their platform is limiting their app choices (or increasing their app charges), it's that companies trying to sell apps to users can't choose to simply "Don't use an iPhone", as Apple is preventing commerce between iPhone users and those companies, which is again not socially beneficial.

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