My boundaries as an open source developer • Hacker News Board

Re: My boundaries as an open source developer

#201

Post by seer » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 9:56 AM UTC

jurassic wrote: post #142

A few years back I was in a role where it was my job to maintain a small but non-trivial open source project (~1500 github stars, 5 core contributors). I burned out after about two years in that role. People repeatedly demanding help in the github issues without even providing repro steps. Hate mail to the project email list from users angry we didn't implement the feature they want in the latest release. We had peop…

Do you think if more people provided positive feedback would have helped? I remember when working on customer relations roles in startups (devs wear many hats there), we had lots of bad responses, but some were just outright praise.

Like "thank you, you've changed our live for the better" kinda stuff, and it always made the work of wading through the muck more bearable.

Re: My boundaries as an open source developer

#202

Post by MadeThisToReply » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 10:24 AM UTC

lamontcg wrote: post #43

akvadrako wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to use github, especially when you don't want the public making issues.

800# gorilla. don't think gitlab supports this either. that probably leaves self-hosting and all the brittleness and pain around that.

An aside, but is it a standard thing to write # to mean "pound" when you're talking about pounds as a unit of weight? Like as opposed to "800lb"? I knew what you meant, it's just I've never seen that notation before so I'm wondering if you just made it up or if I'm out of the loop somehow.

Re: My boundaries as an open source developer

#203

Post by CR007 » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 10:41 AM UTC

Does it works? I also have issues with users and in my case they don't read this kind of instructions.

Re: My boundaries as an open source developer

#204

Post by account42 » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 10:54 AM UTC

jamie-vesoft wrote: post #164

smashah wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally print out a mostly pre-filled github link with most repro context, all they have to do is fill the rest of it in. They still don't do it. Nowadays a non-templated bug issue is autoclosed.

Autoclosing is a good take.

Depending on the userbase (e.g. end users from non-OSS ecosystems) and what you want to achieve you might just have to accept they are more used to talking to corporate support agents than filing bugs and learn to work with them. Autoclosing immediately puts the user into an adversarial position - better would be to have an automated reply for incomplete bug reports stating what is missing and that the information is needed for you to help the user to make it clear that filling it in properly is in their best interest as well.

Re: My boundaries as an open source developer

#205

Post by pengwing » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 11:11 AM UTC

In refusing to accept that any contribution you make to society is in fact a business, you will be doomed to build a bad business. You will talk about the emotional turmoil a feature request puts you through instead of being proud of your streamlined business processes and your ever increasing MRR.

Re: My boundaries as an open source developer

#206

Post by account42 » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 11:15 AM UTC

wildmanx wrote: post #196

enraged_camel wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will preface this by saying I have immense respect for anyone who open-sources their work. I think the web as we know it today would not exist without such kind and hard-working individuals. In my opinion, I think most of these issues outlined in the article are caused by lack of communication combined with unclear expectations, to be honest. The only thing I ask of open-source library authors/maintainers is this:…

> I will preface this by saying I have immense respect for anyone who open-sources their work. I think the web as we know it today would not exist without such kind and hard-working individuals. That itself is part of the problem. I do also appreciate all the great FOSS ecosystems that I'm using. Who knows where we would be without them. But open source software is not about some kind, selfless altruist who hacks awa…

> Are you serious? Above you just said that you have immense respect for open source authors. And now you say that somebody can't take it anymore and is burned out and THEN you STILL expect them to put MORE work in, despite being burned out, to pass things on? The source code is available, the license is clear, if there is anybody else who wants to maintain, they can just go and to it. Why do you keep demanding anything from the already-burned-out author that you respect immensely? Honestly, I find that deeply disrespectful.

I just want to add to this: Finding and training a new good maintainer is a lot of work. If you just pass the project along with its reputation to whoever comes up then you might be doing more harm and it might be better to not do anything and have the new maintainer earn their own trust with their fork. So yeah, having open source developers to pass on the project when they want to quit is not a fair expectation.

Re: My boundaries as an open source developer

#207

Post by account42 » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 11:18 AM UTC

yawaramin wrote: post #165

enraged_camel wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will preface this by saying I have immense respect for anyone who open-sources their work. I think the web as we know it today would not exist without such kind and hard-working individuals. In my opinion, I think most of these issues outlined in the article are caused by lack of communication combined with unclear expectations, to be honest. The only thing I ask of open-source library authors/maintainers is this:…

The OP is an article doing literally exactly what you want. And he's going above and beyond what's required–he didn't even need to communicate all this redundantly. It's already all in the open source license–willingness to work, level of commitment, etc. Just read the license. It's included in every open source project.

Exactly, here is the first sentence of the zlib license:

> This software is provided 'as-is', without any express or implied warranty.

Almost all open-source licenses will have conditions like this, MOST EVEN MAKE IT ALL CAPS. The default expectation of support from the author should be 0.0

Re: My boundaries as an open source developer

#208

Post by otikik » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 11:44 AM UTC

stdbrouw wrote: post #197

Most of the comments here remind me of the famous Neil Gaiman quote, "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch." [1] But I don't think that's the right framing. People buy the first book because they hope there will be a second, even though they haven't paid for that second book and hence are not entitled to it. People use your open-source project because you said, hey, here's this exciting new thing, try it out, so they…

It's funny, because I think I have pretty much the opposite expectation.

When I encounter a new open source project it means that I can make it better by providing pull requests with new features, or fixing bugs. And then everyone benefits. If they choose to listen to me that's fine, but that's the icing on the cake, not the main course.

Re: My boundaries as an open source developer

#209

Post by uranusjr » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 12:04 PM UTC

stdbrouw wrote: post #197

Most of the comments here remind me of the famous Neil Gaiman quote, "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch." [1] But I don't think that's the right framing. People buy the first book because they hope there will be a second, even though they haven't paid for that second book and hence are not entitled to it. People use your open-source project because you said, hey, here's this exciting new thing, try it out, so they…

> People use your open-source project because you said, hey, here's this exciting new thing, try it out, so they assume you'd also want to listen when it doesn't quite work as it should.

> Put a big "this project is not maintained" warning on top, and nobody will bother you.

I think this is exactly the problem. The author never promises they would maintain the software, nor expect their definition of “this works” to match the users’. Why do they need to put up a sign in the first place for people to not assume? “Expecting things that were never promised” is pretty much the definition of self-entitlement. IMO this should be entirely the other way around. People should not expect anything unless the authors say they are willing to maintain.

Re: My boundaries as an open source developer

#210

Post by drfuchs » Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 12:32 PM UTC

MadeThisToReply wrote: post #202

lamontcg wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

800# gorilla. don't think gitlab supports this either. that probably leaves self-hosting and all the brittleness and pain around that.

An aside, but is it a standard thing to write # to mean "pound" when you're talking about pounds as a unit of weight? Like as opposed to "800lb"? I knew what you meant, it's just I've never seen that notation before so I'm wondering if you just made it up or if I'm out of the loop somehow.

Using hash-mark to mean “pounds” goes back to 1850 at least.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_sign

A few decades ago, it was very common to see at the deli counter, in the handwritten prices on signs jabbed into lunch meats and such. And on the price signs above the vegetable bins at the supermarket. In the US, anyway.