I Think Your App Should Be Free • Hacker News Board

Re: I Think Your App Should Be Free

#201

Post by davesims » Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 6:46 PM UTC

earbitscom wrote: post #194

davesims wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great point, that artists usually are terrible business people, and in a label relationship are usually passive and unaware. I think that, as much as any other aspect of the music industry, is what artists need to change. The average artist could learn the world from the average startup founder. Most don't have the temperament for it, and that's unfortunate. But those that do can take control over their in…

I just suspect that you don't want to live in a world where the only music that surfaces to the top or provides a living for its creator is one where all good musicians must also be astute business people. You miss out on a lot of good art that way.

Very true, I really don't and I'm pretty burned out on trying to convince a lot of the very talented songwriters and artists I know and sometimes play with that they can't passively wait on some label system to put them on a treadmill to success.

What we need is YC for artists?

Re: I Think Your App Should Be Free

#202

Post by earbitscom » Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 6:52 PM UTC

davesims wrote: post #201

earbitscom wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just suspect that you don't want to live in a world where the only music that surfaces to the top or provides a living for its creator is one where all good musicians must also be astute business people. You miss out on a lot of good art that way.

Very true, I really don't and I'm pretty burned out on trying to convince a lot of the very talented songwriters and artists I know and sometimes play with that they can't passively wait on some label system to put them on a treadmill to success. What we need is YC for artists?

I am way ahead of you. Just need to make a few hundred million, and no doubt, you will get your YC for music. ;)

Re: I Think Your App Should Be Free

#203

Post by davesims » Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 7:11 PM UTC

earbitscom wrote: post #193

davesims wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say this is only partially true. These days labels are not, and I would argue should not be the artists' primary target for income. Touring and new media are things artists have control over to a much larger extent and that's where artists should be focused. If a good independent label wants to pick you up, like say Bella Union or Merge or Sub Pop (still) or the like then go for it, it might help. Or it might not…

That's the same as startup getting investment because they have "traction", and most won't if they don't. And the benefit of having a label is that, while you don't need one to tour and focus on new media, it sure as hell helps to have professional help from people who have done this countless times. There are thousands of independent labels. Some will do nothing for you. Those that do their job can do things that a…

This is all true, and it's important to distinguish between "The Industry" and the good indie labels. Bella Union is one I have first-hand knowledge of and they are incredibly fair, and involved in the artists' tours and PR to a large degree.

If you know that's the kind of label you're looking at signing with, great! But the idea that labels are gatekeepers to distribution and royalties is a thing of the past.

Labels work best now when they act more like YC and less like RCA.

Re: I Think Your App Should Be Free

#204

Post by davesims » Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 7:17 PM UTC

earbitscom wrote: post #202

davesims wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true, I really don't and I'm pretty burned out on trying to convince a lot of the very talented songwriters and artists I know and sometimes play with that they can't passively wait on some label system to put them on a treadmill to success. What we need is YC for artists?

I am way ahead of you. Just need to make a few hundred million, and no doubt, you will get your YC for music. ;)

Ha! I love it. You're the guy to do it, Joey.

I myself have a hazy dream of a promotion/tech/PR/consulting company that can hand-roll technologies, web, mobile and such, tailored to the creative ambitions of musicians, to find new creative tools and ways of manifesting their visions that go beyond the album-tour-album cycle, which I also think is more and more a thing of the past.

Re: I Think Your App Should Be Free

#205

Post by jholman » Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 7:48 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #172

toyg wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that the plumber fixes hundreds of sinks, the artist fixes one and then extracts rent from users. "Last I checked, no artists are selling MP3s to consumers on a per stream royalty basis. " Still, every time the record is aired in public (bars etc), royalties are paid. And even when selling to consumers, they'll sell a vinyl disk, then a cassette, then a cd, then an .mp3, then a .wtf... and every tim…

What if said plumber, instead of fixing each problem individually, develops a robot that will fix the problems on his behalf. Let's say, for argument's sake, that it costs $0.05 to operate the robot during the repair. Should the plumber charge $0.05 + a small profit or should the plumber charge $0.05 + a large profit to offset the cost of developing the robot? Once the robot is available, it costs the plumber basical…

Without replying to what should happen, what will happen is that I'll be able to get my sink fixed for under $1. It's gonna happen. And it sounds awesome!

And I've already wrapped my head around the fact that I'm going to have to be agile to keep figuring out new ways to earn my own paycheque, so that I can afford that $1 repair.

Re: I Think Your App Should Be Free

#206

Post by orangecat » Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 7:48 PM UTC

earbitscom wrote: post #98

toyg wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look around you. Entertainment cartels are pushing draconian legislation across the world, making copyright infringement a criminal felony, with harsher penalties than manslaughter; they are threatening to disconnect people from the internet, which in many cases would compromise their livelihood; they are pushing DRM into software and hardware, so that you don't own your device, they do; they support Chinese-style fi…

They don't care if you want to buy their products. They simply care that, if you do not, you do not also take those products without paying for them. If people were not taking for free things that cost significant money to produce, and did not keep ignoring the light-handed laws that already exist, there would be no need for more draconian measures. But most importantly, what does any of this have to do with whether…

Don't take things that don't belong to you, and you don't need to worry about having your internet taken away.

The AAs want to cripple my computing devices and eliminate my fair use and first sale rights, regardless of whether I "take" any of their IP. A world without copyright would probably not be ideal, but I'd choose it in a heartbeat over the Right to Read world that they're demanding.

Re: I Think Your App Should Be Free

#207

Post by wazoox » Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 8:11 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #190

wazoox wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The overall good? The overall good of what? If you swallow a cost of 10, but that 11 people gets 1 from your contribution, the society as a whole wins. > How about people just stop taking what's not theirs and treat artists with respect? When something that used to be hard becomes totally simple, obvious and costless, there is absolutely no sense trying to stick to the previous state of the matter. When Gutenberg i…

If you swallow a cost of 10, but that 11 people gets 1 from your contribution, the society as a whole wins. It sounds to me like you're saying "so long as society sees a net gain, it's ok to exploit other people"

Yes, that's the justification for taxes, for instance.

Re: I Think Your App Should Be Free

#208

Post by toyg » Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 8:41 PM UTC

tjr wrote: post #187

hxa7241 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing different about the plumber and the artist. > Both would like to be paid for their work. No. A plumber wants to be paid for work, your musician wants to be paid a rent. A plumber wants to be paid once, your musician wants to be paid for every copy. If your musician comes to me and offers to make a song, and I agree to pay to fund it, then fine: we make an exchange just like a plumber and customer.…

This whole analogy is kind of weak. Hiring a plumber to come in and do a job on your sink is similar to hiring a session musician to come in and lay down a bass track on your recording, and not very similar to buying an album. Buying an album from a musician is similar to buying a book about plumbing that a plumber wrote, and I imagine that most such plumber-writers would indeed have interest in protecting their copy…

No, you are twisting the analogy, but that's irrelevant.

The problem here is that a "product business" in the online world is hardly sustainable, because enforcing artificial scarcity of your product is basically impossible. Which is why the entire software industry is quickly shifting to SaaS models and consulting as fast as they can. The music business should do the same and stop whining.

Re: I Think Your App Should Be Free

#209

Post by earbitscom » Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 9:01 PM UTC

wazoox wrote: post #207

sliverstorm wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you swallow a cost of 10, but that 11 people gets 1 from your contribution, the society as a whole wins. It sounds to me like you're saying "so long as society sees a net gain, it's ok to exploit other people"

Yes, that's the justification for taxes, for instance.

Everybody pays taxes that are invested in products and services for all to share, not one person.

Re: I Think Your App Should Be Free

#210

Post by earbitscom » Tue, Oct 04, 2011, 9:10 PM UTC

davesims wrote: post #204

earbitscom wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am way ahead of you. Just need to make a few hundred million, and no doubt, you will get your YC for music. ;)

Ha! I love it. You're the guy to do it, Joey. I myself have a hazy dream of a promotion/tech/PR/consulting company that can hand-roll technologies, web, mobile and such, tailored to the creative ambitions of musicians, to find new creative tools and ways of manifesting their visions that go beyond the album-tour-album cycle, which I also think is more and more a thing of the past.

I just want to translate YC into music. Interview people and make sure they're all insanely talented, super dedicated, and not assholes. Make sure they can afford rent and food for a few months. Put them in a room together and let them find their best co-founders (or bring co-founders with them), and finance the creation of a low-cost demo product. 3 months later, put each group on stage in front of the world's best independent label heads, and help them get fair deals from good people. One day, Radiohead will come along and say they love what we're doing so much that they want to give every band $150k with no cap and no discount. You almost don't need to do anything differently. ;)