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Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

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Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still don't understand why you don't just mark their answer from creatively misinterpreted instructions wrong and move on with life Because the actual incidents are often in fuzzy areas where it seems possible the teacher's instructions were confusing . You're stuck making a character judgment of your student instead of evaluating knowledge. Over a career, it becomes easier to cordon off fuzzy areas than it is to…

> it seems possible the teacher's instructions were confusing. Yes; I've been on both sides. I've written assignments that I thought were clear and unambiguous, only to find that a significant number of students misunderstood what I meant. They weren't intentionally trying to make the problems easier, they just weren't sure what I wanted. (And, of course, who is going to interpret an ambiguous problem so as to make m…

> who is going to interpret an ambiguous problem so as to make more work for themselves?

I did.

In fact I always tried to find a unique or novel solution to my problem sets, ambiguous or not. (If the problem set contained a hint I tried mightily to not use the hint, I'd always try to replace a proof by contradiction with a constructive proof etc...)

My marks suffered for it. I even almost failed a first year exam cos I didn't want to perform a grody 4x4 matrix multiplication. Later the prof said: "Your exam was crap, but you came up with a better answer for problem four than I'd thought of."

It's still one of my most cherished memories from undergrad.

I always hated the: "Will this be on the test" type of attitude. Are you there to learn and break new ground or to just get marks? I had crappy marks but my work spoke for itself.

Students should put more effort into creating their own body of work. If they spent half the energy they put into finding tricks and gaming the system, they'd be much better off for it.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older people knowing better than younger people is one of those heuristics that's almost always right [1]. It's hard to tell the difference between a stupid kid and a stupid parent, because stupid parents are rare. Yet people keep searching for stupid parents, because it's really important to find them when they exist. There's a constant rate of kids pulling false alarms on their parents, but you don't want to ignore…

Stupid parents are very much everywhere

But stupidity is relative and stupid children are more common. The heuristic can be reworded as adult parents are more knowledgeable and capable than children.

Put the average child in the position of the average parent and you will see the difference.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#203
I taught college CS for 10 years before moving to industry. Cheating wasn't a huge problem, but I did run have some issues.

Gave a makeup exam to one student with an altered programming problem than the original exam. The student answered the original problem, not the one on the exam they was given. That made it very clearcut.

I also had a written requirement that students must be able to explain their homework programs to me. Had a few that couldn't explain what parts of "their" own program was doing.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#204
post #159

> But some are an assault on reason, with every word of the assignment creatively misinterpreted. It was never stated which temperature circuit to build or how to prove it works or what level of explanation was necessary. And who’s to say what “build” means? You have to think like a software engineer. Test first: write the requirements fro the perspective of a test which fails if the requirements are not met. Rather…

It's a silly exaggerated example. Point still stands, at least from my experience. Even with a rubric, people still (intentionally or unintentionally) find ways to do things that circumvent the learning goals/outcomes of the assignment

If the real objective is learning goals/outcome rather than (or in addition to) a working temperature circuit, then that objective has to be somehow encoded into the requirements. Or else, sometimes all the stated requirements will be met without that unstated one being hit.

This is difficult because, for instance, the possibility of cheating means that the person who says they performed the assignment might have contracted it off to someone else and learned nothing.

Someone who already has all the required knowledge can also just spin out the assignment without learning anything.

Basically, learning is a state change in the pupil; if you want to validate that some state change occurred, you have to have a way of measuring the state before and after and calculating a difference.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#205
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why would word get out if you just grade that way? Students compare grades and talk to each other. It's also not uncommon for students to ask about your policy on rounding in the first class, when you're going through the syllabus. >Cheating had no negative impact - on anyone, at all. I'm afraid your cheating did have a negative impact on others, albeit a small one. For example, suppose that the class you took was g…

> Students compare grades and talk to each other. That works for multiple choice. Given the ".5" I'm assuming partial credit is discretionary. So you can just discretionarily choose to give +.5. > For example, suppose that the class you took was graded on a curve. It wasn't. Also I'm pretty sure I still failed the test because cheating is hard, I couldn't really read much of what the person in front of me wrote. > Yo…

>That works for multiple choice. Given the ".5" I'm assuming partial credit is discretionary. So you can just discretionarily choose to give +.5.

Yep, and then you'll deal with the students who want to know why their friends got the discretionary +.5 and they didn't! And you'll be in a difficult position, because arbitrarily adding points to some answers and not others does seem pretty unfair on the face of it. (Remember that the students who weren't sitting on a grade boundary will be comparing their scores with the students who were, so they'll see if you added +0.5 points to question 1 for Jack on 89.5 but not for Jane on 85.)

By the way, "partial credit" in this context means "credit for a partially correct answer", not "non-integer credit". You can perfectly well have a scoring system where a single correct answer is worth 0.5 points, as test points are a completely arbitrary unit :)

> My point isn't "cheating good".

It's not clear to me what your point is regarding cheating. You seem to not like the idea of people being punished for cheating. But as cheating is easy to do, it would run rampant without at least a tangible possibility of punishment. So I don't really understand how you (i) think that cheating is bad, (ii) recognize that it happens frequently, and yet (iii) don't think that cheaters should be punished.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#206
i always personally preferred project work. i was never great at exams (although i did get a whole hell of a lot better at them). project work always better suited my obsessive personality and desire to really polish things. projects feel creative, homeworks and exam prep... don't. (although learning how to take exams meant learning how to make good cheat sheets and memorizing them well, so in a way it became creative)

that said for most lower division material projects are unsuitable, for that stuff the system i saw i liked the most i first saw online for an undergrad intro ai course at mit. it was pretty simple, the course had a handful of carefully designed uncurved but not tricky half exams units that were given throughout the term. the final was two half exam spaces for any units you wanted to try again, if you did well all semester, you didn't have to show up for the final, if you messed up, it's your chance to retake the specific units you wish to improve. goal: demonstrate you learned all the techniques in the course, that's it.

sometimes it felt like putting more weight on homeworks was for student comfort and to reduce stress on exams for everyone, sadly sometimes i think it had the opposite effect of producing lazier exam design and more reliance on curves. i once took a course which had no official notes, fairly weak lectures and the claim "i teach at a level above the assigned textbook." no, he didn't, he wasted everyone's time.

i once went to see a professor after the fact to go over the final, i told him explicitly i just wanted to understand the things i got wrong but he kept returning points even after multiple statements that i didn't care. this made me very sad to think that he probably sat for hours with people arguing over points rather than discussing material.

overall it felt like some professors (or maybe their students) spent hundreds of hours designing amazing courses and some spent less than ten. those in the former camp were often prickly in terms of their specific asks, but obviously in those cases it didn't matter as the care and craftsmanship that went into the course design justified any particularity. it was the waste of time courses that were the worst (even if they did sometimes come with generous mea culpa grading).

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#207
The grading method this article argues is infeasible is widely used in the UK (although retakes aren't always unlimited or free). This does have downsides, but many of the other problems described in the article vanish. Very importantly, students aren't incentivized to hide the fact that they don't understand something in homework.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#208
One of my favorite teachers in high school had the following policies:

* There will be a short quiz every week covering recent material.

* Homework is optional for any student who got an A on the last quiz (due to the length of the quizzes, that essentially meant 100%).

* Anyone with an A average in the class so far and an A on the last quiz is permitted to sleep in class.

It worked great. Nobody's time was being wasted on busy work, nor were people recklessly left behind.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#209

Ha, the same happens to managers. Unless you have a power to remove cheaters, you will have to throw rules at them. At expense of everyone else. I still hold the line, but do suffer sometimes.

what makes you happy being a manager. i mean how does it provide you satisfaction. I've been trying to see if its a good idea to go into managmement but dealing with people isn't my strong suite.

Re: Teaching is a slow process of becoming everything you hate

#210
post #157

This problem isn't a teaching problem. Evaluating someone's skills in any respect or context is basically an intractable problem. Interviewing, school, job performance, etc. etc. If there were an organization that could "perfectly" evaluate people's skills in a fixed period of time it would quickly become the top, and eventually only company. It would use its own skills in order to remove low performers, perfectly fr…

In ancient times, all final exams would be oral ones in front of a panel of teachers. I'd guess that this technique would be pretty successful today too.

This works great, and it is still how evaluation is done when the stakes are higher: PhD defenses, executive hiring... even getting hired as an entry-level engineer at Google requires about five hours of what is basically oral examination.

But society is not willing to pay that kind of price for the earlier levels of evaluation. We want "scalable" systems. Unfortunately those same evaluations are often treated as more sensitive than they really are. For example, if you're comparing two students I'd argue that 3.0 vs 3.5 GPA gives you at least some signal, whereas 3.5 vs 3.6 GPA gives you basically no signal at all (maybe the 3.6 student took easier courses, maybe they were more lucky with cutoffs, etc.). And yet the distinction sometimes matters e.g. to graduate programs.

In well-designed systems, the GPA cutoff is set relatively low and more sensitive methods are used to select the best students from the pool. Often this includes an interview with a professor, which is also a form of oral exam.

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