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U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#201

Post by bluefirebrand »

digbybk wrote: post #110
beardyw wrote: post #35

If your vehicle is heading relentlessly toward a group of schoolchildren it would be nice to have a way to override it. Either that or no windows so you won't be haunted by it every night of your life.

I'm not sure if I'm optimistic about autonomous vehicles or just very pessimistic about human drivers. I have no confidence that the next driver making a left turn while I'm crossing the road won't kill me. I'm much more comfortable with a computer that is programmed to avoid killing me, even if the software may have the occasional bug, than with a human who may or may not prioritize my life over whatever else it is…

> I'm much more comfortable with a computer that is programmed to avoid killing me

I think the real concern that the car is actually programmed explicitly to kill you if it has to, to ensure it's own safety or the safety of it's riders or something.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#202

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

darepublic wrote: post #188
bcrosby95 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car accidents kill someone every 100 million miles driven in the US. Anyone claiming they're safer now is either selling something or doesn't know what they're talking about.

Anyone claiming they are safer now.. vs what? Getting into a Tesla, turning on fsd and taking a snooze? Wonder how many millions of miles that would last without a fatality or car wreck. A lot less than 1 million I wager.

Depends a lot on what kind of road you're on.

Interstate highway? I'd absolutely trust it to cross the country while I napped.

Downtown urban cores where I can expect bicyclists in the road and delivery trucks parked in a lane? Not a chance.

Anywhere that involves making an unprotected left turn? Gambling with your life, there.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#203

Post by MontyCarloHall »

rmbyrro wrote: post #74
gkop wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s part of the point: Whether or not they are eventually possible is an open question. The standard argument for agnosticism as to the possibility is “The problem reduces to artificial general intelligence, the possibility of which is an open question.”

I never thought driving a vehicle is that general of an activity to require AGI. Which parts of driving would require AGI?

> Which parts of driving would require AGI?

Being able to read the intent of other cars and preemptively act if necessary. For instance, being able to predict that the harried mom on her phone toting 3 screaming kids in her beat up minivan is likely to change lanes without looking (I passed her preemptively), or that the car with out-of-state plates is likely to miss a confusingly signed exit and try and cut over at the last minute without looking (I slowed down preemptively, to let the car abruptly veer across three lanes of traffic ahead of me).

Both of these examples require an understanding of the world that goes far beyond mere driving skills.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#205

Post by jedberg »

twblalock wrote: post #180
pizza wrote: post #7

Reading between the lines here this just makes me think that the regulator has become captured by the industry. This is like removing human control on an autonomous Russian roulette revolver that shoots to the side if it detects a person in front of the barrel, then praying for the best.

At least the government isn't standing in the way of innovation this time. The market will still decide if these vehicles sell. I wouldn't buy one, would you? Plus, it's never too late to crack down. If there are a lot of accidents, you can bet members of Congress will thrive on the outrage. So, there's really nothing to see here. Just the government getting out of the way, a little bit, for now.

> I wouldn't buy one, would you?

Absolutely! In a heartbeat. Because I know it's a tool to enhance my driving, not replace me, and I still need to pay attention.

I already have an add-on for my car that gives me level 3 on the freeway (no hands on the wheel needed). I still keep my hand on the wheel though and I still pay attention, but it definitely helps because I don't have to use brain power staying in the lane or maintaining speed. I can give 100% of my brain power to looking for danger.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#206

Post by danuker »

datavirtue wrote: post #199
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #171

I would go further - if the vehicle is autonomous, it should be illegal for it to have a steering wheel. The idea that you can make a deadly self-driving car, and then jail the driver because he could not react in 0.2 seconds when your car suddenly swerved is the greatest handover of money and power to corporations since the times of slavery. So make the choice clear - either tha car has controls, or it doesn't. And…

If it doesn't have a steering wheel then no one will buy it. It's too weird and different and will be a major obstacle to adoption. So yeah, corporate wants it to have a steering wheel for numerous reasons...including the one you cite.

You are speculating. A self-driving taxi, bus or truck service might not find having controls important.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#207

Post by cinntaile »

young_unixer wrote: post #185
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #171

I would go further - if the vehicle is autonomous, it should be illegal for it to have a steering wheel. The idea that you can make a deadly self-driving car, and then jail the driver because he could not react in 0.2 seconds when your car suddenly swerved is the greatest handover of money and power to corporations since the times of slavery. So make the choice clear - either tha car has controls, or it doesn't. And…

The driver should know the capabilities of the car. If he doesn't, then he shouldn't drive it. If he isn't 100% sure that autonomous driving system will work as expected, then he should never enable that system.

According to your criterium that means never. There is no way to be 100% sure how an autonomous driving system will work as expected.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#208

Post by datavirtue »

vmception wrote: post #143
forbiddenvoid wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is obviously the real biggest issue facing AV companies. Technology will get there; social acceptance is a bigger hurdle. You have to trust that the machine is at least as likely to stop for you as a human, and that will take a long time for everyone.

I had been beyond the "acceptance" idea, before the cars actually were rolled out, because I believed they would they would be better than humans. I was pretty excited about Lidar. I liked the idea that environmental mix up or collision would be autoupdated to other cars so that they would perform better in the condition, crowd fixing edge cases extremely quickly. But pretty much none of that has happened and the cur…

Tesla self-deiving reminds me of Elon's personal life. Stay clear of it.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#209

Post by pydry »

moduspol wrote: post #191
pydry wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self driving cars will be as safe as the level of criminal liability faced by the makers. Regulatory capture means it wont be high and the potential profits to be realized from first mover advantage here means there will be a significant incentive to "move fast and break things". So to speak. I'd feel safe if an executive who OKs a software update that kills someone risks significant jail time. If that means no self…

> I'd feel safe if an executive who OKs a software update that kills someone risks significant jail time. If that means no self driving cars for 20 more years then I am totally fine with that. The status quo is 139 people dying every day in the US in traffic accidents. If we replaced all cars with self-driving ones, an executive could approve a software update every single day that kills only 100 and it could very we…

>These discussions always seem to implicitly presume that we're currently at zero deaths.

I never presumed that and never would.

I do presume that if we watered down criminal liability for reckless driving then we'd get way, way more than 139.

The current regulatory framework surrounding self driving cars is rather like making drink driving subject to a $30 fine. I would be surprised if it starts out safer than humans.

Re: U.S. eliminates human controls requirement for fully automated vehicles

#210

Post by forgot_old_user »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #198
vmception wrote: post #122

I was at a crosswalk and saw a car with the big cameras on top coming Normally I walk and have confidence the human will stop and not want the consequences, or I at least make eye contact with the human driver for reassurance they will stop This time I ran, mumbling “self driving car fuck that”

I was thinking about that recently, that there needs to be some kind of “I see you” system. Maybe an external light that tracks you or something. Anything that can help me as a pedestrian understand what its internal state is.

Folks are workin on it https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-autonomous-car-is-co...
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